Stark Varg

[redrider144]

12 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

Our series runs 70 minutes, and with riders crossing the finish at 69 minutes it's not unusual to see finish times in the  1.5 hour range.

What series is that?  A Stark might be able to do that one.

Edited May 23, 2023 by redrider144

[Johnny Depp]

10 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

We don't even know if it can finish a Moto in deep sand.  Especially in 90 degF heat & humidity.

The video you just watched is validation that the bike is good enough for 99% of retail buyers. This was apparent 18 months ago, and 18k people voted with their wallets. Proof of concept is now delivered. Even if the public gets a good laugh at a Wolf not finishing a race, the Wolf crowd will get a good laugh out of smoking them until then. As you know, I'm an advocate for shorter race lengths, not just so a Wolf can finish, but because longer races are typically more boring. The culture change that is coming about will be good for the sport, in spite of the resistance from non buyers. The early adopters will be trend setting leaders who will have a constant smile on their face. That's why we all ride.

[Johnny Depp]

10 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

What series is that?  A Stark might be able to do that one.

TORCS, Texas Off Road Championship Series. A Alta won a B class race years ago, finishing with the battery in limp mode. 

Some promoters will have race lengths and distances that will work, some won't. Some Wolf's will win races, some will lose, some will run out of battery. It's going to be fun.

[redrider144]

1 minute ago, Johnny Depp said:

TORCS, Texas Off Road Championship Series. A Alta won a B class race years ago, finishing with the battery in limp mode. 

Interesting.  Yeah maybe a Varg could complete one of those.  That's a short hare scramble though.

[Johnny Depp]

1 minute ago, redrider144 said:

Interesting.  Yeah maybe a Varg could complete one of those.  That's a short hare scramble though.

They used to be longer 2 hours, and the safety and management of pit stops became overbearing and an insurance problem. It's Texas, and even though they don't race in July, August and September, the heat and humidity is dangerous and I'm sure that's a factor also. There is also only so many hours in the day, They race Sat. and Sun. trying to fit as many classes as possible, so that's another factor.

[Ud_Luz]

47 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

Yes.  As I stated, I see ALOT of MX bikes racing 2hr hare scrambles.

I had a 125sx I used to run in hare scrambles. It had enough power and was super light. Took it apart and put in a 6th gear out of an xcw for the open sections. That little bike ripped. 

Anyway, I can't wait to see the Varg in actual races. Anybody think they will create a separate class or manipulate rules like they did killing off 2 strokes? I can see all of this becoming very political pitting various players against each other. The 2 stroke guys lost, will it be rigged so the 4 stroke guys lose too? 

How many people will be excited to go to races that sound like a bunch of blenders running around the track? A lot of questions that will certainly have an impact going forward. 

 

 

Just doesn't have the same excitement. 

[redrider144]

9 minutes ago, Ud_Luz said:

Anyway, I can't wait to see the Varg in actual races. Anybody think they will create a separate class or manipulate rules like they did killing off 2 strokes? I can see all of this becoming very political pitting various players against each other. The 2 stroke guys lost, will it be rigged so the 4 stroke guys lose too? 

2T getting killed off was a unique situation.  1996, Yamaha lobbied to get the displacement rule change put in, and none of the other mfgs cared or objected ( including Honda) bc they didn't see 4Ts as a threat.  The rule was already in place once the YZM400 debuted and became a threat.  AMA couldn't put that cat back in the bag.

That same thing isn't going to happen again.  Honda / Yamaha aren't going to let e-bikes in unless / until they have their own.  The only way the Stark comes into AMA SX / MX right away would be a new eMX class.

Edited May 23, 2023 by redrider144

[Johnny Depp]

7 minutes ago, Ud_Luz said:

Anybody think they will create a separate class or manipulate rules like they did killing off 2 strokes?

IMO there is only one logical method, and that is Open class racing. It works without a problem in Off Road and MX Vet and Skill classes. 

Anyone thinking they can figure some formula is pissing in the wind. The Moto mafia will use the excuse that they don't want to make another mistake like 2t's, while not ever attempting to correct the said mistake, Double Speak.

[Johnny Depp]

3 minutes ago, redrider144 said:

2T getting killed off was a unique situation.  1996, Yamaha lobbied to get the displacement rule change put in, and none of the other mfgs cared or objected ( including Honda) bc they didn't see 4Ts as a threat.  The rule was already in place once the YZM400 debuted and became a threat.  AMA couldn't put that cat back in the bag.

That same thing isn't going to happen again.  Honda / Yamaha aren't going to let e-bikes in unless / until they have their own.  The only way the Stark comes into AMA SX / MX right away would be a new eMX class.

They have had 20+ years to correct the 2t imbalance if they gave a shit. Pure protectionism rule making, just like the Harley flat track days.

[redrider144]

2 minutes ago, Johnny Depp said:

They have had 20+ years to correct the 2t imbalance if they gave a shit. Pure protectionism rule making, just like the Harley flat track days.

Once the mfg's all set to making MX 4Ts, especially Honda, there wasn't enough left to care about the unfairness of the displacement rule.  KTM caring wasn't enough.  Honda abandoned 2Ts and Kaw / Suzuki quickly followed suit.

Edited May 23, 2023 by redrider144

[mr.skywalker]

3 hours ago, Micharider said:

Question:

Assuming a technical, low speed trail riding setting, is there any sense limiting the power?

After all you use the throttle to define how much power you need.

Say 99% of the time the requested power is up to 50HP, but in the remaining 1% it would be nice to have the 60HP available.

The range gained by limiting the bike to 50HP in that case is negligible, isn't it?

When it comes to batteries the load reduces the capacity, quite drastically if I may add. In other words if you limit the power used you will automatically increase the range and its not not linear, its slightly exponential as more is lost to heat. That said if you are very good at limiting throttle it doesnt matter but I know from experience on my smaller bike I get the same range(~20miles) with 4.9kwh battery at 11kw of power as I do on 3.6kwh pack at 8kw or 30-35miles on 3.6kwh at 6kwh. Some of these are different conditions and different trails so take info with grain of salt as my bike relatively low powered so I tend to be full throttle alot and just carry momentum alot where a stark would do more on-off throttle.

 

Here are the popular high power cells test data(most people assume the Stark is using the P42A referenced here). You can see how the Wh decreases with power usage which Wh is simply how much range you have. Where when any mfg quotes wh it testing at 0.2C or about 0.8-1A discharge. That means if the stark is 6.5Kwh nominal and it peaks at 30A continuous(think just doing a top speed run until dead) then that pack is only going to have about 4.35kwh of actual useable energy but keeping it at 10A bumps that up to 6.2kwh. 30A would be 72hp and 10A would be 24hp roughly

Edited May 23, 2023 by mr.skywalker

[redrider144]

1 hour ago, mr.skywalker said:

Here are the popular high power cells test data(most people assume the Stark is using the P42A referenced here).

The P45B looks like a beast.

[mr.skywalker]

It absolutely is, cost and availability is only problem, $4.5/cell vs $7.5/cell in bulk(over 1000cells), $6 vs $10 for small quantities. The samsung 50s is what Im looking at for next builds as I dont need high power put it falls in between both on price but kills them in range. Both of the last batteries have used P42A bc performance vs cost cant be touched. The tesla cells I used previously are pretty pathetic in comparison but they $3.25/cell

This is my last build with the P42A, a mini stark lol My battery quality has improved a good bit to say the least and this is pushing 14.4kw/18hp peak. Debated going with smaller pack with the P45B(100 cells vs 120 with P42A) but just couldnt justify it even with a little weight savings(about 4lbs difference) and better fitment

 

[redrider144]

4 minutes ago, mr.skywalker said:

This is my last build with the P42A, a mini stark lol

Looks sick, that will be ridiculously fun.

Might I suggest for your next project, a SuperMini chassis (19" front / 16" rear) eMX bike?  Would be an absolute ripper.

Edited May 23, 2023 by redrider144

[mr.skywalker]

Just now, redrider144 said:

Might I suggest for your next project, a SuperMini chassis (19" front / 16" rear) eMX bike?  Would be an absolute ripper.

Yep, quite a few of those out there. Crazy part on this 65 is Im running the same motor used in those and full sized bikes. If someone wants one Id consider building one for them, can do the whole thing over a weekend if I had everything on hand. If I didnt have the surron the supermini ktm/husky or cr85/crf150r would be my go to as it would cost alot less and could put down serious power the surron motor just cant handle.

Sorry, getting a bit off topic. I probably need to start another thread on this build, been working on a complete video of the entire build showing what all goes into it.

[TCMB371]

9 hours ago, Ud_Luz said:

Anyway, I can't wait to see the Varg in actual races. Anybody think they will create a separate class or manipulate rules like they did killing off 2 strokes? I can see all of this becoming very political pitting various players against each other. The 2 stroke guys lost, will it be rigged so the 4 stroke guys lose too? 

I've been racing my Alta in 450's or open bike classes. I plan to do the same with the Varg. On a professional level its different, but still, even Lorettas will allow electric bikes in an open bike class.

If all goes as planned, i'll be racing my Varg this Friday at the Fox Raceway amateur national. I'm currently battling a respiratory illness, though, so still TBD. But really hoping i'm able to.

[Ud_Luz]

Just now, TCMB371 said:

I've been racing my Alta in 450's or open bike classes. I plan to do the same with the Varg. On a professional level its different, but still, even Lorettas will allow electric bikes in an open bike class.

If all goes as planned, i'll be racing my Varg this Friday at the Fox Raceway amateur national. I'm currently battling a respiratory illness, though, so still TBD. But really hoping i'm able to.

Do you think they'll put them in the 450 class, a special e-class or just open? 

[hawaiidirtrider]

On 5/23/2023 at 5:00 AM, Ud_Luz said:

I had a 125sx I used to run in hare scrambles. It had enough power and was super light. Took it apart and put in a 6th gear out of an xcw for the open sections. That little bike ripped. 

Anyway, I can't wait to see the Varg in actual races. Anybody think they will create a separate class or manipulate rules like they did killing off 2 strokes? I can see all of this becoming very political pitting various players against each other. The 2 stroke guys lost, will it be rigged so the 4 stroke guys lose too? 

How many people will be excited to go to races that sound like a bunch of blenders running around the track? A lot of questions that will certainly have an impact going forward. 

 

 

Just doesn't have the same excitement. 

Football has no sound. 

[TCMB371]

Second ride on my Stark Varg! This time i did a long moto to test battery range. In this video youll see how the Varg behaves over the entire battery range, including into power loss. I also talk about battery, motor, and inverter thermals. Enjoy!

https://youtu.be/B-yBRNyz2JA

Edited May 25, 2023 by TCMB371

[redrider144]

1 hour ago, TCMB371 said:

Second ride on my Stark Varg! This time i did a long moto to test battery range. In this video youll see how the Varg behaves over the entire battery range, including into power loss. I also talk about battery, motor, and inverter thermals. Enjoy!

I noticed it starting to flash between green & red around 28 ish minutes?  Did you feel like that got your attention enough before the power was limited?  My only thought is, approaching a big jump face when the limit kicks in.

Edit:  I see what was happening now.  The battery % was fluctuating while you were riding, load / unload / regen braking.  The indicator turns red (or orange) at 20.

I'm wondering if they need to put a short inverse time delay filter (software) on that %.  If there's already a filter, perhaps the time constant needs to be increased a bit.

Edited May 25, 2023 by redrider144