TE300i and aftermarket head

[mmc205]

Running a bone stock 19 TE300i.  Very happy with it overall but re-visiting the idea of putting an aftermarket head on when i do the piston/rings at 100 hours.  I really don't want to use an aftermarket tuner with the head.  Any heads that perform well with no other mods?  S3?  Slavens? RK Tek?  Any others?  My main concern is safety of the engine with the new head, and hoping for the "run a gear higher" type of performance i always hear about.  

[Armbarn sailor]

I have an S3 on my 19 tx300. No complaints, helps out plenty

[Marco the Pool Boy]

3 hours ago, mmc205 said:

Running a bone stock 19 TE300i.  Very happy with it overall but re-visiting the idea of putting an aftermarket head on when i do the piston/rings at 100 hours.  I really don't want to use an aftermarket tuner with the head.  Any heads that perform well with no other mods?  S3?  Slavens? RK Tek?  Any others?  My main concern is safety of the engine with the new head, and hoping for the "run a gear higher" type of performance i always hear about.  

My only experience with the TPI bikes has been with the ‘18 TE250i. I’m running a Slavens S3 with AAA insert, with that insert I would not recommend unless you use a programmer, period. Now the Slavens kit comes with a AA head also offering less compression might be viable with a stock ECU. 

‘The Slavens styled fuel-screw is mandatory no matter what on any KTM/Husky TPI bike. 

My bike tuned with a JD 6X tuner, V-force4 reed cage, Slavens styled fuel-screw, Gnarly pipe w/ 2.1 muffler. And a fresh topend, bout 200 psi. My JD tuner is set richer across all parameters than the stock ECU could handle. This bike rips in a big way great off idle torque and controllable much more powerful mid-top, but it took a little adjusting to the programmer to make it happen. There’s been a programmer on my bike for 100 hours ??
 

Side note; many thought they could throw on a JD 6X tuner and have instant power, BS!      IMHO, fuel-screw was not used with it and they used super-rich settings causing pipe-bang and a host of other issues during the first couple of years of TPI’s. It’s to bad as the JD system can be a safe reliable performance  programmer. 

Sorry but if looking for more grunt with a high compression head a programmer is the safest way to go with a TPI. If money’s no object get a GET from someone like TACOMOTO who will design a base map to fit your needs nicely. Proper base maps are key! There’s too much negative BS-hype about programmers here, they do work and quite well with correct settings. And are reliable. 

Or just do a new topend with a B sized piston, remove 1 of the 2 base gaskets throw on a Gnarly pipe and enjoy ? 

That’s my 2-cents.....

[HERA]

You can run the RK Tek head sucessfully without a fuel controller on your 19 TPI and realize the "running a gear or 2 higher" and lower coolant temps (great thing on the TPIs)

Having said that, We find you can make any FI engine run better via using a fuel controller.. BONE STOCK to MOD.. Having the ability to adjust your injector pulse time and ignition timing correctly for YOUR ENGINE always equates to a better running engine..

Injector flow rates and fuel pump pressures and flow vary from bike to bike. This is one reason why  the same TPI bikes can run very different.. The mapping is the same, but the components supplying the fuel can be , and are, different in delivery rates etc.

The ECUs on these TPI bikes are VERY SIMPLE.. They only have a few sensor inputs to extrapolate the correct "tune".  It is a basic "look up table".

NONE of the aftermarket ECUs or "custom tunes"  adds any more inputs..

So, while they might work better than OEM, it is just another version of the same OEM mapping using the same sensor inputs.

Same concept as an updated map from KTM.. which will always continue.

Having a piggy-back fuel controller allows you to adjust the fuel correctly right at the injector (where you need it) They are very simple to use and allow you to tune your engine correctly .. Great product.. Been using them for decades on snowmobiles!!  

Food for thought..

Edited July 13, 2020 by HERA

[mog]

33 minutes ago, HERA said:

You can run the RK Tek head sucessfully without a fuel controller on your 19 TPI and realize the "running a gear or 2 higher" and lower coolant temps (great thing on the TPIs)

Having said that, We find you can make any FI engine run better via using a fuel controller.. BONE STOCK to MOD.. Having the ability to adjust your injector pulse time and ignition timing correctly for YOUR ENGINE always equates to a better running engine..

The ECUs on these TPI bikes are VERY SIMPLE.. They only have a few sensor inputs to extrapolate the correct "tune".  It is a basic "look up table".

NONE of the aftermarket ECUs or "custom tunes"  adds any more inputs..

So, while they might work better than OEM, it is just another version of the same OEM mapping using the same sensor inputs.

Same concept as an updated map from KTM.. which will always continue.

Having a piggy-back fuel controller allows you to adjust the fuel correctly right at the injector (where you need it) They are very simple to use and allow you to tune your engine correctly .. Great product.. Been using them for decades on snowmobiles!!  

Food for thought..

Wow I agreed with that whole post 

 

I would like to see real evidence of cooler temps but let's just not go down that road ?

[mmc205]

5 hours ago, HERA said:

You can run the RK Tek head sucessfully without a fuel controller on your 19 TPI and realize the "running a gear or 2 higher" and lower coolant temps (great thing on the TPIs)

Having said that, We find you can make any FI engine run better via using a fuel controller.. BONE STOCK to MOD.. Having the ability to adjust your injector pulse time and ignition timing correctly for YOUR ENGINE always equates to a better running engine..

Injector flow rates and fuel pump pressures and flow vary from bike to bike. This is one reason why  the same TPI bikes can run very different.. The mapping is the same, but the components supplying the fuel can be , and are, different in delivery rates etc.

The ECUs on these TPI bikes are VERY SIMPLE.. They only have a few sensor inputs to extrapolate the correct "tune".  It is a basic "look up table".

NONE of the aftermarket ECUs or "custom tunes"  adds any more inputs..

So, while they might work better than OEM, it is just another version of the same OEM mapping using the same sensor inputs.

Same concept as an updated map from KTM.. which will always continue.

Having a piggy-back fuel controller allows you to adjust the fuel correctly right at the injector (where you need it) They are very simple to use and allow you to tune your engine correctly .. Great product.. Been using them for decades on snowmobiles!!  

Food for thought..

Really interesting.  Why does it run cooler? Something to do with higher compression ratio?

[coffinhauler]

Delete

 

Edited July 14, 2020 by coffinhauler

[HERA]

39 minutes ago, mmc205 said:

Really interesting.  Why does it run cooler? Something to do with higher compression ratio?

It runs cooler because of the design of the head and the alloy used.

[mmc205]

8 hours ago, HERA said:

It runs cooler because of the design of the head and the alloy used.

I may have to try one.  Perhaps no fuel controller at first, trying to keep my bike as simple as possible; i had a highly modded ktm 690 once that had an issue and it was tough to chase down or even get a dealer to help because of all the modifications the PO made.  After installation, what should i keep an eye on just to make sure everything is going well, or what would indicate that a fuel controller would help?

Edited July 14, 2020 by mmc205

[HERA]

3 hours ago, mmc205 said:

I may have to try one.  Perhaps no fuel controller at first, trying to keep my bike as simple as possible; i had a highly modded ktm 690 once that had an issue and it was tough to chase down or even get a dealer to help because of all the modifications the PO made.  After installation, what should i keep an eye on just to make sure everything is going well, or what would indicate that a fuel controller would help?

As far as "keeping an eye on" goes.. It is no different than being stock.  These are plug and play but with TPI ,as mentioned above, even the stock engines can run very different from each other.. Some STOCK TPIs will ,absolutely, require fuel adjustmentsto run well.. Just a function of KTM not tolerance testing the installed components.

 

[mog]

1 hour ago, HERA said:

As far as "keeping an eye on" goes.. It is no different than being stock.  These are plug and play but with TPI ,as mentioned above, even the stock engines can run very different from each other.. Some STOCK TPIs will ,absolutely, require fuel adjustmentsto run well.. Just a function of KTM not tolerance testing the installed components.

 

Which parts don't they test for tolerance 

1 hour ago, HERA said:

 

[dyrtmon]

um...another reason that I'm hesitant to go TPI and stick with carbeuration (spelling) as far aftermarket heads go...? not knocking TPI, just trying to get educated. Will be in the market for a new 2t withing the next year, like the simplicity of 2 strokes, understand carbs, head mods et cetera, but guess that TPI changes things?

[Armbarn sailor]

On 7/13/2020 at 10:39 PM, mmc205 said:

Really interesting.  Why does it run cooler? Something to do with higher compression ratio?

Can you stick weld? If so, when you strike an arc, pull it away from the metal a half inch. You now have a blazing hot torch and a very wide heat zone. Now put electrode at typical 1/8th from metal and you will see more work, less heat and smaller heat zone. Same principle. The stock ktm heads have too much space in there and produce less compression and more heat. Higher compression heads or even same compression but tighter squish band leads to less free space which creates heat. The difference between stock heat and after I put on an s3 head was noticeable without a thermometer. It will never over heat either. Just remember your riding buddys will feel left out if they have a 4 stroke and turn it off for a break and to cool while you sit there talking forgetting your bike is running.

[mog]

Normally all else being equal ,more compression means more heat 

 

You see this with richer jetting required 

[redrider144]

On 7/14/2020 at 12:18 PM, mog said:

Which parts don't they test for tolerance 

Injectors mainly, according to PowerCDI.  He measured a lot of variance when he was doing his testing.  But I think sensor variance can also affect fueling.

An EFI car / truck has continuous closed loop feedback (O2 trim) to make up for sensor / injector variance.  A dirt bike doesn't.

I saw a video on (I think it was) JMart's Honda 250 where they had a data logger connected to an O2 sensor.  No trim on the fly, but they used the data after the ride to make map adjustments.

Edited July 16, 2020 by redrider144

[69fastback]

On 7/13/2020 at 11:55 AM, Marco the Pool Boy said:

‘The Slavens styled fuel-screw is mandatory no matter what on any KTM/Husky TPI bike. 

 

No it’s not. I ride with more guys that don’t have the mod, than do. 

[Armbarn sailor]

On 7/16/2020 at 9:15 AM, mog said:

Normally all else being equal ,more compression means more heat 

 

You see this with richer jetting required 

They run cooler. I can only speak on my experiences. If squish band is all that’s changed by milling it will create more heat, if dome is redesigned with tighter squish it will run cooler. Used to sell “cool heads” back in the day, they worked then and they work now. It doesn’t show up on a dyno but I know my 300 ran much much hotter stock then with s3 head and my jetting also didn’t change. Usually higher compression has leaner jetting then stock also, much better intake signal. A 300 has leaner jetting then a 125

[mx_599]

On 7/16/2020 at 7:29 AM, redrider144 said:

Injectors mainly, according to PowerCDI.  He measured a lot of variance when he was doing his testing.  But I think sensor variance can also affect fueling.

An EFI car / truck has continuous closed loop feedback (O2 trim) to make up for sensor / injector variance.  A dirt bike doesn't.

I saw a video on (I think it was) JMart's Honda 250 where they had a data logger connected to an O2 sensor.  No trim on the fly, but they used the data after the ride to make map adjustments.

I am confused. So aftermarket tune/ecu will solve variances in injectors? Or do injectors somehow need to be measured for outout?

[mog]

Yes you can tweak them to compensate for say a lesser injector 

[mx_599]

1 minute ago, mog said:

Yes you can tweak them to compensate for say a lesser injector 

Hi mog ?

Yes...but don't you usually plug in play ECU?? So like slaven or taco will measure your injector output if you send them injector??