China making OEM Engines for Big names?

[OLDSCHOOL2TGuy]

I watched a 2022 debut for CF Moto regarding their lineup and found out they make the engines for KTM, Gas Gas, & Husqvarna bikes and use the same engines in the CF Moto bikes, UTVs, & ATVs. So what, do you all think of the idea that China is producing OEM engines for some of the top bikes in MX?

What is crazier yet is that Koshine makes 2T engines that all interchange with KTM branded parts from the 50cc all the way up to the 150cc. They even have factory built bikes sporting these engines that minus the WP suspension, FMF Exhaust, and Brembos look the part.

This has me wondering if it is truly worth spending the money for a KTM, Kawasaki, or Honda bike when an unbranded China bike with the same powerplant is 1/3 the price? Especially, models for kids who are not racing competitively. What are your thoughts?

[SuperHonkycross]

CF Moto will also field a Moto3 team in the FIM Grand Prix championship in 2022. The CF will be a rebadged KTM like the GasGas and Husqvarna teams but the name will be there all the same.

[nots0much]

Are they the "same" engines or are they rip-offs? Chinese 150cc 2T just entered Russian market a few months ago. They're a copy of the 2017 KTM design. They ALL seize up in the first 10 hours because of a poor copy of some of the components. The fix is to put KTM parts in it (KTM cylinder and piston cost 1/3 of the price of the Chinese bike in Russia). 

[eastreich]

Many Honda, Yamaha, and other Japanese OEM engines have been manufactured in China for decades.

The Chinese knockoff bikes using Honda style engines weren't cloned from someone buying the Japanese engines. They just used the same tooling Honda was using to make their own.

China has insane import tariffs, so if you want to sell in the arguably one of the world's largest markets you have to manufacture the bikes there or you are already priced out of the market. China doesn't play by the same rules we do.

As for CF Moto making tens of thousands of 125 and 200cc four strokes for KTM/Husky road bikes that will never leave China or be sold here? Meh.

The engines that CF Moto are producing aren't going into any 250/350/450 motocrosser sold in the US. Depending they could be in a 390 Duke or Adventure, but if they aren't Chinese engines they are Indian. Frankly, having dealt with merallurgy from both countries with my day job I would trust a CF Moto made 390 before a Bajaj made one.

I know quite a few people with SSRs. For just the kids and trail riding or bombing around the hills? Why not. As long as a guy understands there is minimal resale value go for it. Heck, at least you can get a Chinese knock off. Still tough to find Japanese kids bikes in any dealer around my area.

Now whether you want to support Chinese made products is a different topic. When it comes down to it, the US is now a society of consumers not producers. We no longer possess the capability to produce the raw materials or manufacturing capability to make most of the metals required. The mines have been closed and the smelters will never fire back up due to NIMBYs.

[nots0much]

The only thing a quick search reveals is that CF has bought LC8 engine from KTM to put in own designs. They have a partnership in China, where 49% of the venture is owned by KTM, the rest by CF. CF also makes 790 Dukes since 2020 in China. Something that has been known for quite some time. I see nothing about KTM's pride-and-joy (enduro bikes) moving assembly to China. No idea on kids bikes though. 

[CR250-2007]

Many western companies have moved their manufacturing or subcontracted their manufacturing to China, they legally must partner with a Chinese company, who owns 51% of the local manufacturing company. Western companies willingly hand over their intellectual property and expertise to their Chinese partners, because they are chasing short term profits.

Don't believe the haters, product quality can be worse, or the same, or even better, than the same product made in a western factories. If it's a kids bike, that's not being pushed to the limits, does it make a difference?

For all those haters out there, stop blaming the Chinese, and redirect your hatred to the greedy western corporations...

http://www.jiesworld.com/international_corporations_in_china.htm

 

 

[DC_Excitement]

I have a 2020 cf moto 800 ATV, it’s a quality machine for the price, I have not had any issues with it. 4K cheaper than a Polaris with the same options 

[Suaver]

2 hours ago, DC_Excitement said:

I have a 2020 cf moto 800 ATV, it’s a quality machine for the price, I have not had any issues with it. 4K cheaper than a Polaris with the same options 

That’s good to hear. I’ve seen a few SxS that seemed alright. I’d like to get the lady something she can cruise around the logging roads when we go camping, and our once a year dunes trip. We have a newborn on the way so it’ll be nice for her to be able to bring him around and participate. She’s… not well balanced and not a sporty person who can jump on a quad or anything and have fun with it without being terrified. Plus I wouldn’t mind ripping it around from time to time. But even though I’ve spent SxS money on my dirt bike habit, I have a hard time wanting to shell out 20k+ for a unit when the truck that’s gonna tow it was half that. The CFMoto versions seem like affordable fun. 

[Oregon lightweight moto]

10 hours ago, CR250-2007 said:

Many western companies have moved their manufacturing or subcontracted their manufacturing to China, they legally must partner with a Chinese company, who owns 51% of the local manufacturing company. Western companies willingly hand over their intellectual property and expertise to their Chinese partners, because they are chasing short term profits.

Don't believe the haters, product quality can be worse, or the same, or even better, than the same product made in a western factories. If it's a kids bike, that's not being pushed to the limits, does it make a difference?

For all those haters out there, stop blaming the Chinese, and redirect your hatred to the greedy western corporations...

http://www.jiesworld.com/international_corporations_in_china.htm

 

 

Money is vastly more important than humanity, morals, etc.

If it weren’t companies wouldn’t do business with a country openly engaged in slavery.  If consumers cared about humanity or other humans we wouldn’t buy products from companies that do business with China. 
But no one cares, everyone make as many bucks as possible, the goal just  seems to be to feed the machine as much as possible. 

[76xtdrvr]

11 hours ago, CR250-2007 said:

Many western companies have moved their manufacturing or subcontracted their manufacturing to China, they legally must partner with a Chinese company, who owns 51% of the local manufacturing company. Western companies willingly hand over their intellectual property and expertise to their Chinese partners, because they are chasing short term profits.

Don't believe the haters, product quality can be worse, or the same, or even better, than the same product made in a western factories. If it's a kids bike, that's not being pushed to the limits, does it make a difference?

For all those haters out there, stop blaming the Chinese, and redirect your hatred to the greedy western corporations...

http://www.jiesworld.com/international_corporations_in_china.htm

 

 

So true. I worked for a medical device company before I retired. A whole product line of cranial implants(!) was moved to China for cheap manufacturing labor. The materials, processes, and quality were closely monitored by my company, but it doesn't take a genius to know that sooner or later the Chinese would start producing knock-offs of the product and sell it as their own. But it was driven by short term profits in order to satisfy the executives' bonuses and the shareholders. Also, the "If we don't do it, our competitors will or are already are doing it" logic.

 

[OLDSCHOOL2TGuy]

  I know that Honda and Yamaha both have manufacturing partnerships for their small engines in China. Honda is with Jialing who is the company that makes all the monkey bike engines that were used in the early Pitster Pro 125cc pitbikes back in like 2007. Yamaha has a partnership with Linhai. Most of Honda's Gy6 scooter engines are made by Jialing as well. It makes sense to a degree why Japanese companies have an interest in joint ventures in China as there is so much undeveloped land in China and staffing a facility is not an issue either; which simply is not the case in Japan. 

I mean not for nothing but China is a land with many untapped resources. Almost every electronic device is assembled in China. LG, Panasonic, Sony, JVC, Samsung, and so on, all have divisions in China. It is the same for batteries and computer components, clothing lines, and many more. Think about this for a second you pay hundreds of dollars for a set of new Jordan's and they cost all of 7 dollars to manufacture in China. 

Suzuki has a partnership with Hyosung in Korea. If you look at a Hyosung 650 Cafe street bike the engine is a Suzuki SV 650 v-twin engine and the plastics are nearly identical to a GSXR. It is like all the industrial giants the world over are partnering with Eastern countries for manufacturing purposes; especially, when it comes to products for the European market. Heck Harley-Davidson has contracts with China, Korea, Malaysia, and who knows who else for their European/Asian marketed bikes. The thing is knowing what companies to trust and which ones are ripoff companies. 

For instance the GPX (pitster pro) 250 TSE 250R runs a Yamaha DT 230 engine. Every engine component is completely interchangeable with Yamaha parts. The issue with that engine is that it never had a huge aftermarket support when Yamaha was producing that model, which has been extinct for quite some time now; therefore, upgrading the GPX model is very limited. A buddy of mine has one that he put a smart carb and upgraded breather on, and to be honest it is a pretty solid machine and is great for a lightweight Enduro/Adventure bike on a budget. Is it KDX 220 quality, maybe not, but it is better than a TTR or CRF playbike all day. My worry is how blurred are the lines and to what degree are they intertwined? 

[kcposty]

3 hours ago, Bigfatredpig said:

Money is vastly more important than humanity, morals, etc.

If it weren’t companies wouldn’t do business with a country openly engaged in slavery.  If consumers cared about humanity or other humans we wouldn’t buy products from companies that do business with China. 
But no one cares, everyone make as many bucks as possible, the goal just  seems to be to feed the machine as much as possible. 

More, more, more.  

[kcposty]

26 minutes ago, OLDSCHOOL2TGuy said:

  I know that Honda and Yamaha both have manufacturing partnerships for their small engines in China. Honda is with Jialing who is the company that makes all the monkey bike engines that were used in the early Pitster Pro 125cc pitbikes back in like 2007. Yamaha has a partnership with Linhai. Most of Honda's Gy6 scooter engines are made by Jialing as well. It makes sense to a degree why Japanese companies have an interest in joint ventures in China as there is so much undeveloped land in China and staffing a facility is not an issue either; which simply is not the case in Japan. 

I mean not for nothing but China is a land with many untapped resources. Almost every electronic device is assembled in China. LG, Panasonic, Sony, JVC, Samsung, and so on, all have divisions in China. It is the same for batteries and computer components, clothing lines, and many more. Think about this for a second you pay hundreds of dollars for a set of new Jordan's and they cost all of 7 dollars to manufacture in China. 

Suzuki has a partnership with Hyosung in Korea. If you look at a Hyosung 650 Cafe street bike the engine is a Suzuki SV 650 v-twin engine and the plastics are nearly identical to a GSXR. It is like all the industrial giants the world over are partnering with Eastern countries for manufacturing purposes; especially, when it comes to products for the European market. Heck Harley-Davidson has contracts with China, Korea, Malaysia, and who knows who else for their European/Asian marketed bikes. The thing is knowing what companies to trust and which ones are ripoff companies. 

For instance the GPX (pitster pro) 250 TSE 250R runs a Yamaha DT 230 engine. Every engine component is completely interchangeable with Yamaha parts. The issue with that engine is that it never had a huge aftermarket support when Yamaha was producing that model, which has been extinct for quite some time now; therefore, upgrading the GPX model is very limited. A buddy of mine has one that he put a smart carb and upgraded breather on, and to be honest it is a pretty solid machine and is great for a lightweight Enduro/Adventure bike on a budget. Is it KDX 220 quality, maybe not, but it is better than a TTR or CRF playbike all day. My worry is how blurred are the lines and to what degree are they intertwined? 

They are already deeply intertwined with international economic interdependencies well established. The challenge is picking out the quality offerings.  Every manufacturer has duds.

[zomby woof]

Honda builds complete bikes in China - and you're still paying full Honda price - and still getting a mediocre bike

[Piney Woods]

4 hours ago, Bigfatredpig said:

Money is vastly more important than humanity, morals, etc.

If it weren’t companies wouldn’t do business with a country openly engaged in slavery.  If consumers cared about humanity or other humans we wouldn’t buy products from companies that do business with China. 
But no one cares, everyone make as many bucks as possible, the goal just  seems to be to feed the machine as much as possible. 

??

[beezer]

3 hours ago, 76xtdrvr said:

So true. I worked for a medical device company before I retired. A whole product line of cranial implants(!) was moved to China for cheap manufacturing labor. The materials, processes, and quality were closely monitored by my company, but it doesn't take a genius to know that sooner or later the Chinese would start producing knock-offs of the product and sell it as their own. But it was driven by short term profits in order to satisfy the executives' bonuses and the shareholders. Also, the "If we don't do it, our competitors will or are already are doing it" logic.

 

One of my medical customers was trying to move an implantable device factory to Costa Rico.  The scrap rate was 95 % so they had to go back to the US.

As you said every single thing they do is to maximize the short term profits.  Most medical companies pay their bills from 3rd world countries now.

They know everything will get screwed up and invoices will take longer to get paid.