Beta2Stroke zf schock vs. wp+kyb

[campdirt]

can the zf schock for example on a 2020 300re be as good modifed as a modded kyb or wp schock? is it worth spendin the $ or just start over with something different?

[weantright]

It will be very hard to get an apples to apples comparison since no one has had all or very few has had anyone to compare to latest Beta. My experience was the Sachs shock wasn't the limiting factor in the handling. Could you gain better performance with a bunch of mods?? Sure but what's the cost vs. gains vs. starting new. For example I dislike the stock WP shock on KTM base bikes. I could throw $$ at it, it will be better but not as good as a Ohlins Flow and it will likely cost more. Best to think where you want to be in the end and then add in the cost vs. any of the aftermarket shock options. We have a 2019 250rr with an Ohlins Flow, it's really good and these are inexpensive so to speak.

[FORMA MOTO]

YES

https://www.endurospec.com/beta.html

https://mx-tech.com/store/shock-parts/mxt-shock-huck/

WP does not make a shock that will fit.

 

[weantright]

1 hour ago, KRAYNIAL said:

YES

https://www.endurospec.com/beta.html

https://mx-tech.com/store/shock-parts/mxt-shock-huck/

WP does not make a shock that will fit.

 

While I think their National shock would be nice, it's 2x the cost of a Ohlin Flow and I know that works without constant adjustments.

[ktm300]

I've liked the shocks prior to 2020, they hosed something up this year, call Aaron at All Moto he's has a fix for that shock and it's CONSIDERABLY less than buy a new shock.  

[rharr]

A shock is a shock regardless of brand (hollow void with gas chamber piggy back, piston with metal shims to control oil, more metal shims on a valve at the piggy back to control more oil), the designs are basically the same on any standard MX rated bike (cheaper bikes start skimping of features). The difference comes in the execution and setup. 

Biggest criticism of sachs shocks is the lack of damping, or dampening force curve used. Some say it's very dead and adjustment does little to nothing. My honda showa shock was to stiff on compression, my point every brand has a issue, it's the setup not the shock.

There has been talk that the latest batch of sachs shocks have some short comings in the details. Seems early 2020 shocks used a different piston port design and later 2020's changed that port design, that would effect oil flow characteristics, the sealing band used in those pistons have also been called into question and aren't great for maintenance (harder to find and remove/replace) and could function better.   An option is to use a KYB piston and band as a drop in or aftermarket piston but that will require a shim restack to solve those issues and will effect the feel of the rebound as discussed above. I haven't heard as much about these issues with the other major brands, but aftermarket offers a plethora of piston options for every major brand, so this could be considered moot. 

The other issue I have read about is the compression adjuster, the stock one is ok, but may lack the ability to handle high speed forces which will translate into rider feel. The OEM adjuster also has a more limited range of adjustment for those snobs that feel the need to always adjust.  Beta factory offers a different compression adjuster assembly (and some after market places) that is reported to have a higher range of adjustment and better valving design to handle high speed forces better. My point here is there is something to be said about Beta offering a direct replacement option to the OEM, I haven't seen may other brands offer this or read complaints about it. The biggest difference is Sachs uses a 8mm shim setup for the assembly and most everyone else uses a 6mm shim assembly, the replacement uses a 6mm assembly offering greater options to shims for adjustment.  SO there could be something here that offers other brands the edge. 

The last thing and it's debated heavily is the way the piggy back is sealed. Beta OEM uses a twin piston assembly like WP, some would say this system uses less oil and is more prone to over heating and fade and others will say the system seals better and holds pressure better and will leak less nitrogen. The leaking in my opinion is less relevant if you are regularly refreshing your shock at routine intervals. The important thing is to keep the oil from foaming which happens from heat and lack of nitrogen pressure. Good oil goes a long way, and both twin piston and bladder both solve one of the foaming problems. There are plenty of bladder kits out there to replace the twin piston setup for both Sachs and WP. I would rather have a little more oil, and better heat protection and a leaky bladder, which is less of a concern if you keep up maintenance. KYB and Showa use bladders and it works for them. I would give a slight edge to the bladder equipped shock if you plan to stay on top of maintenance.  You can upgrade you sachs to bladder for about $200 bucks if you are concerned. 

What I am trying to say with all this is a shock is judged on the sum of it's parts, the details, and the setup.

Small changes in the details can have a big effect, there is no silver bullet shock out there that works great for all riders, they all need to be tweaked to accomplish the riders goals and to provide a feedback that makes a rider comfortable. A crappy shock can be tuned to work well as long as the main parts of the shock aren't made out of cheese. 

You are judging a shock on it's ability provide rider feedback though adjustment range.  Some have big ranges with noticeable feedback through adjustment, some no so much. Some shocks do that better job out of the box hitting a target group of rider (KTM 4t's for example), but most don't and some riders don't care enough to want the increased range or the detailed feedback.

[weantright]

So what you are saying is, not all shock is a shock regardless of brand???

Edited August 27, 2020 by weantright

[rharr]

What I am saying is, basic shock design is the same between manufacturers.  The over all design is basically the same when comparing a OEM shock setup for linkage suspension from a MX focused bike, which I consider the Beta to fall into that category (a TW200 shock would be the complete opposite). The parts and coatings that go into that shock effect it's performance. And for the most part the internal parts are all about the same between manufacturers, it's the setup (valving and springs) and combinations of parts that effects it's performance and/or range of adjustment. 

Some OEMs hit the target audience better then others with their valving and springs and require less monkeying. 

The Sach OEM shock is pretty good for what it is and isn't much better or worst then other OEM shocks out there. They all need tweaking to make it work for you. 

Edited August 27, 2020 by rharr

[Johnny Depp]

Some Australian shop dyno'ed the Sachs a few years back and though it was one of the best he's seen. N2Dirt is testing setup on a new compression valve. Some have lengthened the shock and used different pistons. The Sachs has never been known to show much wear. 

 Most assume on a new bike they will factor in suspension tuning, so depending on what you ride and how big or fast you are....

[Texask5]

Currently my oem Sach shock, bladder, kyb piston, revalved works much better than my mxtech national so there is that, mxtech didn't ask many details well any details and definitely missed the mark on the initial setting. Shock is going back to mxtech now. But I think the Sachs shock is plenty capable and buying a new shock isn't necessary.

[Johnny Depp]

13 minutes ago, Texask5 said:

Currently my oem Sach shock, bladder, kyb piston, revalved works much better than my mxtech national so there is that, mxtech didn't ask many details well any details and definitely missed the mark on the initial setting. Shock is going back to mxtech now. But I think the Sachs shock is plenty capable and buying a new shock isn't necessary.

 Your the 1st I've heard to try the MX Tech shock, curious how it turns out. Sounds like you massaged the Sachs also. What kind of setup are you after, what type of riding?

[mobile chernobyl]

There's room for improvement for sure but it's a pretty good shock. I got endurospec to revalve mine and add a bladder. From the way it sounded the 2019+ shocks do actually benefit from a bladder vs the older 50mm style piston since the bladder kit adds both extra oil and nitrogen volume to help with heat fade. I'm no pro but I've definitely felt my shock heat fade in the past... haven't gotten to push this upgrade shock to that point yet but soon! It's certainly made the bike very balanced and was worth the investment in pure grin factor when slamming trail obstacles!

Edited August 28, 2020 by mobile chernobyl

[Johnny Depp]

Beta USA's Factory Suspension has really raised their game! Just checked it out and it's developed quite a few new components that are very reasonably priced.

http://betasuspension.com/beta-usas-suspension-build-program/

It looks like they are trying to be the go to place for Sachs upgrades? Don't see any coatings...

2019 Sachs ZF 46mm Factory Shock Kit:

Rear Shock valving specifications are individually customized for each rider and include:

Factory Beta Suspension USA-designed 46mm SHOCK VALVE ASSEMBLY
- Replaces the stock OEM compression valve
- Improved valve design and DU band creates less friction
- Improved port flow design
- More linear dampening curve
- Decreases harsh high speed spike

Factory Beta Suspension USA-designed COMPRESSION ADJUSTER ASSEMBLY
- Replaces the stock OEM compression adjuster
- Increased external adjustment from OEM
- Improved fine tuning adjustability
- Factory anodized adjuster and housing

Factory Beta Suspension USA-designed OVERSIZE SHOCK BLADDER CONVERSION KIT
- Replaces the stock OEM reservoir floating piston
- CNC-machined aluminum
- Anodized black with etched Beta “B” logo.
- Greatly reduces friction caused by the stock floating piston
- Increased nitrogen volume, giving the shock a plusher, more linear feel
- Improved dampening consistency
- Decreased operating temperature

Components are reassembled using low friction assembly grease and Motul shock fluid, to help minimize stiction and friction.

 

Edited August 28, 2020 by Johnny Depp

[MartyMOOSE]

The std shock can be made to work fine you don't need another shock, I found the 20 shock on the 4st a little harsh at first then too soft, the rebound to slow this is different to the 50mm shocks. The std piston can be valved fine I opted for a KYB 46mm with a Du band left the piston no bladder and revalved the high speed adjuster. The main thing is to know what you want to achieve. 

MM 

[NjBetaRider]

Does anyone know if you can buy the bladder from beta without sending them the shock?

[rharr]

Yes it is sold as a accessory on their main parts page

[GP]

You could not buy the comp adj though without the rest of the work, at least in the past.  

No time with the new 46mm shock, but a lot with the 50mm.  I'm sure some things will apply.

Nice gains with GV for a 50mm KYB and different valving.  This also allows cheap and easy band replacement.  Very little stiction as well.

I had a separator piston apparantly stick, and the resulting pressure spike blew both the body and reservoir orings.  Crazy I know, never saw that before, but new orings and a bladder fixed it.  Coating the inside of a bladder with high vacuum silicone grease mitigates nitrogen migration through the butyl rubber.

Comp adj sucks.  Two much force on the collar and must be run full open most of the time.  I revalved the stack to take some preload off the face shims(stepped piston).  The piston itself is fine and has plenty of flow area.  Next I machined the collar and flipped it, so the collar loads the 14mm shim not the face shims.  Stuck with the spring unfortunately but it seems to work better like this.  The knob is harder to turn however.  The trick with comp adj is getting the range without introducing cavitation from being too soft.  

With all this it's very good.  Probably smoother than my YZFX KYB with an MXTech band and a revalve, but too many other variables there like frame and linkage to draw a definite conclusion.  

Local dealer has seen some 46mm shocks with early wear like the forks.  I have no idea if this is a more widespread issue or not.  I did wear out a 50mm body in about 275hrs., which is OK with me. The nice thing is they can be removed and hard coated properly just like a fork upper.   I had a spare so just installed it in the casting.

[rharr]

58 minutes ago, GP said:

You could not buy the comp adj though without the rest of the work, at least in the past.  

Local dealer has seen some 46mm shocks with early wear like the forks.  I have no idea if this is a more widespread issue or not.  

N2D has a source for compression adjusters that use 6mm id shims FYI. 

 

I think the wear is from the OEM piston and band, If I recall my conversation with Brian, the OEM piston and band tolerances are off a touch and the band picks up crap in the oil wearing things out. I could be off on this but the KYB piston and band are suppose to help solve this. 

Edited August 28, 2020 by rharr

[GP]

5 hours ago, rharr said:

N2D has a source for compression adjusters that use 6mm id shims FYI. 

 

I think the wear is from the OEM piston and band, If I recall my conversation with Brian, the OEM piston and band tolerances are off a touch and the band picks up crap in the oil wearing things out. I could be off on this but the KYB piston and band are suppose to help solve this. 

Interesting because the KYB piston fit in my 50mm YZFX shock is crazy tight!  Band had embedded debris in it after break in when I pulled it apart.  The MXTech DU bushing type band made a huge difference in stiction.  I'm sure the GV and its split fiber band would as well. The 50mm Sachs shocks were fine in this respect, but you could not buy a replacement band separately.  

[Texask5]

22 hours ago, Johnny Depp said:

 Your the 1st I've heard to try the MX Tech shock, curious how it turns out. Sounds like you massaged the Sachs also. What kind of setup are you after, what type of riding?

The sachs shock was worked by three tuners.....long story, but third time is the charm. Im looking for a super rocky and rooty A class rider setup, the terrain I bought this bike for is extremely tight and constantly rocky. The original mxtech national setting was ok unless you hit anything square. It was definitely more supportive than I need.