XR650R CRF450 fork swap: what's the story?

[river251]

I've discovered the CRF450 fork swap. Is it a hands down better fork? What will I get? Should I do it, for riding fast in the desert? Do the Baja guys swap? (I searched but can't find pics or info on XR650s running baja in the last 3-4 years).

Thanks...

[XRandWRRider]

Most of the Baja riders are on CRF450X's these days. I have done this swap twice, and there are a few different ways to accomplish it. Technically speaking , the twin chamber Showa is a better fork than the conventional cartridge Kayaba fork that comes stock on the XR650R, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is better in this application or for your purpose/riding style/preference etc. In my experience, it is a stiffer fork and the rigidity allows for a more precise turn in. I have done the XR/CR hybrid rear shock too, and this probably contributes to this, because it is longer. As a result, the rear is raised and the steering angle is steeper. This may not be the case if you don't do both, because the CRF forks are slightly longer than the XR forks which would add to the rake angle. I'm pretty sure the axle offset is different and depending on what triple clamps you use, the steering stem offset can be different too. All these things contribute to how the bike handles. I gained a better turn in / more precise handling and a fork that tends to bottom less with my fat ass riding. I also sacrificed a little bit of HS stabilty with my set-up, so I added a damper to compensate for it. In the end, my conversion offered just what I was looking for, but that wasn't to go 100mph in a straight line across the desert. There are several threads on the subject if you care to search... here's a link to mine. LINK

[river251]

Most of the Baja riders are on CRF450X's these days. I have done this swap twice, and there are a few different ways to accomplish it. Technically speaking , the twin chamber Showa is a better fork than the conventional cartridge Kayaba fork that comes stock on the XR650R, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is better in this application or for your purpose/riding style/preference etc. In my experience, it is a stiffer fork and the rigidity allows for a more precise turn in. I have done the XR/CR hybrid rear shock too, and this probably contributes to this, because it is longer. As a result, the rear is raised and the steering angle is steeper. This may not be the case if you don't do both, because the CRF forks are slightly longer than the XR forks which would add to the rake angle. I'm pretty sure the axle offset is different and depending on what triple clamps you use, the steering stem offset can be different too. All these things contribute to how the bike handles. I gained a better turn in / more precise handling and a fork that tends to bottom less with my fat ass riding. I also sacrificed a little bit of HS stabilty with my set-up, so I added a damper to compensate for it. In the end, my conversion offered just what I was looking for, but that wasn't to go 100mph in a straight line across the desert. There are several threads on the subject if you care to search... here's a link to mine. LINK

Thanks very much for the thoughtful answer. I'm new to the XRR but I do notice it doesn't really want to turn, prefering whatever line we are already on. Great for blasting through the desert on a rough road or trail, but not for a twisty single track, of which we have many in the desert. My impression was the crf forks help with this for some reason, but Gary at Emig claims the changes come from stiffness, and I think the XRR's desire to go straight is due to geometry, not lack of stiffness...but I could certainly be wrong.

I did in fact search for a couple hours for info, but most threads are focused on how to do it, does the frame take it, etc., but not much on what it actually does. I did notice a preponderance of supermoto guys among those doing it. I weigh 230, 6', but the suspension has been tuned to it, I am just getting used to the XRR but no notice of bottoming yet.

There are still guys in the top 10 in baja on XRRs, I wish I could see pics of them for the last few years to see if they are running crf forks. In fact, had I to do it over again I'd be tempted to get a CRF instead, except I want to keep up on the highway with my dual sport KLR and GS buddies.

Anyway, thanks and thanks for the link. I guess to really see what it does I'll have to try it. I just got the XRR and think I will just spend time getting to know it before I think about doing something that radical, and continue to watch for more info. Thanks a lot. If I do go for it your link will be a big help.

Jim

[XRandWRRider]

I am a Desert rider too... Reno, NV... but I prefer riding ridges, canyons, hill climbs and other more technical stuff as opposed to just WFO blasting across the open desert. I am 6'2" / 235 lbs and until I got serious about the suspension, was riding around with stock springs and valving. I loved the power of the XRR, but the whole bike felt sloppy that way to me. I am sure that I could have improved it greatly by working with what came on the bike, but I decided that if I was going to put some time and money in to the suspension, I wanted the best (within reason and my budget constraints) that I could get. I think I accomplished that. I often ride tight trails with guys on much lighter bikes, and they are always impressed that I manage to keep up. Of course when we get to the hill climbs and open desert, they often don't. That's why I love both my XRR's!

If it was only fuel injected and had factory e-start in a 275 lb package, it would be perfect... Come on Honda, give us what we want!

[river251]

Heh....well you certainly make a convincing case. Mine supposedly came with White Brothers suspension tuned for a guy my size (what a white brothers suspension is is beyond me, I presume it's springs and valves, as the outside looks stock except for the big "White Brothers" decals). It seems to have no problem with my heft.

I don't plan on spending money on the suspension, and if I get a stabilizer at least that will transfer, whether or not the mount does, should I switch. So, I'll get to know her for a while, get used to trying to fling that weight around the desert, then maybe do a swap down the line. It's easy to switch back if it doesn't seem to suite me.

I feel the same as you, I picture a dirt bike climbing, and doing tricky stuff getting through tough situations, rather than hauling the mail through the desert. But for now, some of the fantastic dirt 2-track trails through the hilly desert around here have me very happy. And the power is truly intoxicating, and seems able to resolve any situation. Yeeha!

Thanks for the help and your insight. I'm just surprised there isn't a lot more discussion about the performance after the switch.

Jim

[pmxr]

Bruce Ogilvie, the man who created the XR650R, said it was a very bad idea. Google it. He came down very hard on Dirt Bike Magazine when they did this to the BRP when it first came out. I think they even printed a retraction.

[HeadTrauma]

I did in fact search for a couple hours for info, but most threads are focused on how to do it, does the frame take it, etc., but not much on what it actually does.

USD forks are typically much more rigid and have a lot less underhang below the axle. A fork brace goes a long way toward improving the XR's conventional boingers, but the tubes just are not large enough to have the rigidity of USDs. Ironically, Scott Summers went the other way and put 650R forks on his CRF450R.....

[RUSTYCLUTCH]

The Bruce Ogilvie statement early is right on,he said absolutley do not used the more rigid crf fork or any upside down for that matter,and none of the top guys in Baja ever used crf forks,trust me , its all about throttle control,you can make the 650 work in the turns, hell steve hengeveld weighing 140 could

[XRandWRRider]

Bruce Ogilvie, the man who created the XR650R, said it was a very bad idea. Google it. He came down very hard on Dirt Bike Magazine when they did this to the BRP when it first came out. I think they even printed a retraction.

...Ironically, Scott Summers went the other way and put 650R forks on his CRF450R.....

Bruce Ogilvie worked for Honda and helped create the XR650R, of course he is upset when someone messes with it... and Scott Summers wanted a CRF450R (a very rigid motocross bike) to be better in the woods. IIRC, That was before the CRF450X was even introduced.

Most of the top guys in Baja are sponsored and supported, at least in part, by Honda. Remember the old motto, "Win on Sunday, Sell on Monday"? Well, Honda is in business to sell bikes. It is the same reason that Honda now races the 450X in Baja, they don't have 650R's to sell anymore. Swapping forks is gives a perception of weakness to their product, so they are vehemently against it. That is truly the biggest reason, regardless of what you see printed in the magazines... and anyone who doesn't think the magazines are influenced by how much the sponsors spend on advertising, better think again.

With that said, a fork brace would help you gain a lot of rigidity, and the stock forks can be made to work very well. The idea to live with what you have for a while is a good one.

[HeadTrauma]

and Scott Summers wanted a CRF450R (a very rigid motocross bike) to be better in the woods. IIRC, That was before the CRF450X was even introduced.

I don't understand how that explains why he would ditch USD forks for conventionals. I also don't know how the 450X enters into this because it has USDs just like the 450R.

[XRandWRRider]

I don't understand how that explains why he would ditch USD forks for conventionals. I also don't know how the 450X enters into this because it has USDs just like the 450R.

Easy, they have different frames, and the 450X is designed to be less rigid than the 450R. The XRR forks added some flex to a very rigid bike. A little flex makes a bike more forgiving, which the 450R certainly needed off the track.

an excerpt from Dirt Rider review:

"On the trail, the 450X is everything the 450R is not. The CRF450R (deservedly) remains the best-selling motocrosser in the world, but a vast number of Kevin Windham wanna-bes have sold their XR400Rs and hit the trail on that popular machine. As wonderful as the 450R is on the track, it's less than brilliant on the trail. Moto-stiff suspension and an ultrarigid chassis promise no joy in rocks and roots."

an excerpt from a MotoUSA review:

"The X features an all-new fourth-generation twin-spar aluminum frame with a forged aluminum steering head and tapered downtube that are designed to optimize frame rigidity. One of the knocks on older generation aluminum frames was their extreme rigidity. Everybody likes a strong chassis, but the twin-spar frame could be so rigid it didn't handle as well as a steel frames in certain situations. Honda improved on what many feel is an outstanding chassis with their fourth generation frame and the results are spectacular. "

I'm not saying that the USD's are the best choice for an XRR racing baja or ripping across the terra-firma at 100+ mph. It changes the bike to be sure, and like everything else, it is a compromise. I think I spelled that out in my original post in this thread. In my opinion, it improved the bike for my riding needs and style. Most of the nay-sayers are either biased or have different ideas/goals for the handling. It certainly hasn't hurt the bike at all. That's all I'm saying.

Edited December 7, 2009 by XRandWRRider

[motomanx]

There are still guys in the top 10 in baja on XRRs, I wish I could see pics of them for the last few years to see if they are running crf forks.

I wish that were the case. There are no XR's to speak of in the top ranks in Baja.

They few that are still running are sportsman, and they run stock forks.

[motomanx]

I'm not saying that the USD's are the best choice for an XRR racing baja or ripping across the terra-firma at 100+ mph. It changes the bike to be sure, and like everything else, it is a compromise. I think I spelled that out in my original post in this thread. In my opinion, it improved the bike for my riding needs and style. Most of the nay-sayers are either biased or have different ideas/goals for the handling. It certainly hasn't hurt the bike at all. That's all I'm saying.

My XR spends 1000's of miles a year in Baja with it's USD's.

I prefer the turning and rigidity that they provide. I don't feel that I gave up any stability at speed. It is not as plush as stock, but works way better for me.

If you are a sit down putter, then don't bother. If you push your bike, then it is worth the investment.

Thanks to Jeff, my swap was easy!

anyone interested in Precision Concepts forks and shock?

[river251]

I wish that were the case. There are no XR's to speak of in the top ranks in Baja.

They few that are still running are sportsman, and they run stock forks.

Hmmmmmmmm.......

I could swear I looked at the top 10 pro results for the last few years and there was at least one XRR....

2005 XRRs placed 1,2,5,6

2006 they took the 12 top spots, sans 6 and 11

2007 XRRs placed 4,7,8,9,11,13

2008 all top 15 but 2,12,14 were 450Xs, no XRRs.

Sheesh, what happened?

I want a CRF450X to keep my other red pet company.

[mxzine]

I mostly ride moto, my current bike is a 450R Honda.

I heard from these msg boards how good the 650 was and how offroad capable they are so I Got a 2007 650 a few years ago and liked it for five minutes until realized how much better it could be in more than a few areas!

To me the bike flat out blows is stock form especially jumping off a modern motocrosser! I stripped close to 50 lbs off mine, added an FCR carb, pipe, CRF forks and a host of other small mods.

The forks were a stellar mod as the amount of flex on the conventional forks was scary to me. The stock forks could be modded to be better IMO but never even close to a modern CRF set (IMO)

My 650 has come a long way and the forks were a huge part of that not to mention 15+ lbs lighter.

[motomanx]

Sheesh, what happened?

they probably stopped making the 650R because they were not making $$ off of it.

Honda Pits does not even support the 650R anymore.

[BADCOOKY]

Yes manx they stopped making the XR650r as you bought one every ten years as they'll outlast a good claw hammer.

I've just swapped out to a set of 05 CRF450r forks and i like it this way.I spent 3 years with the conventional forks on her and made them work much better than stock,the switch to the USD's have made the bike even better.

The 650 forks are now on the CRF and i like them there as well.

They help in the snot so much it's chalk and cheese.I know why Scott summers did it now.

I reckon the jury is out as for me the USD's on the big XR for me are much better.

For me any weight loss is a boon and the Cr front endcomplete with the CRF front wheel is about 6lbs lighter so it's all good.the cr500 hybrid shock is my next mod.

[XRandWRRider]

...the cr500 hybrid shock is my next mod.

I did this mod per Bruce's website at the same time that I did the fork conversion. Well worth it, although since I didn't limit the travel I do have to tippy-toe now.

[motoxmann]

I'm 6' 220lb and 46 years old. I ride the stock forks and shock rebuilt with springs and valves by House of Horsepower. I also have the fork brace. I ride trails, open desert, and dunes. I find that this set up works well for me. If you spend a little time at the Gym between rides you wont find any handing problems at any speed :-)

[BADCOOKY]

I did this mod per Bruce's website at the same time that I did the fork conversion. Well worth it, although since I didn't limit the travel I do have to tippy-toe now.

I'm not just keeping up with the Jones's either XR/WR rideri like to set my bike balance with the high speed comp as well and i can't do this with the XR shock.

MotoXman the Xr650 fork with the RSW fork brace is great where i don't ride the XR dude,i ride my CRF in that stuff and it's better in there doing that with the Xr front.

It's made the CRF better in rocks /roots and ruts man.

But now the XR running long from 3rd on and up is boss where i ride.

It's all good all the time.

And screw the weights i was a 5'9 super heavyweight(285lb) powerlifter for a decade or two so i'm never lifting weights again, never ever.