How to slide the rear into corners

[djellemah]

I've been riding offroad about 9 months now. Before that I rode sportbikes for 16 years, and on roadrace tracks (not racing) for about 10 of that. I rode in the fast group at track days.

I've become pretty comfortable with offroad riding - some of long-time riders I know have commented that I ride very well for the amount of time I've been doing it. Which is of course nice to hear ? but the bug bit me hard and I've been riding pretty much every weekend since I started, and practising at every chance I get ? And reading this forum has helped a great deal .

I'm not understanding corner entries in dirt where the rear wheel is sliding. What I don't understand is at what point does/should the rear wheel step out? I'm comfortable with the rear sliding on the way out of a corner and breaking it loose with a bit of extra throttle, but I'm not certain if I should be attempting to make the rear wheel to slide going into a corner.

Is it something that I cause, by tapping the rear brake or chopping the throttle? If so, how do I make the transition from sliding because of braking force to sliding because of power, without the bike wanting to highside?

Or is it something that kinda happens spontaneously in entries to sharp corners because of weight being on the front wheel from braking?

I've asked several people I ride with about this, but mostly they tell me about setup and braking for corner entry. Which I feel I understand well enough for now.

[OLHILLBILLY]

First, put the slide rule and calculator away.?

Everything is opposite of a street bike, so it doesn't work like it does in a road race situation. Your not leaned over as far and the traction isn't as good so you don't have the violent hook up, suspension compression, snap over the top like you get from a brake high side on pavement.

Most of the time backing into a turn on a dirt bike is a rear brake thing followed by a lot of gas and a snap out of the clutch used to square off a tight, slow turn to get a better drive out of it. So there just isn't enough speed involved to high side you. Even if your going fast the traction on dirt just isn't there enough to throw you over the top. If it is, like Super Moto, your going to be using the front brake to unload and reload the rear wheel along with engine back torque like you do on a street bike.

Just work with it, start small and go up. No exact science to it as usual, it's all feel.

[tranqwhl]

I'm not understanding corner entries in dirt where the rear wheel is sliding. What I don't understand is at what point does/should the rear wheel step out? I'm comfortable with the rear sliding on the way out of a corner and breaking it loose with a bit of extra throttle, but I'm not certain if I should be attempting to make the rear wheel to slide going into a corner.

Is it something that I cause, by tapping the rear brake or chopping the throttle? If so, how do I make the transition from sliding because of braking force to sliding because of power, without the bike wanting to highside?

In some tight corners, it's not bad to get the rear stepped out just before you enter. It starts to get the bike pointed in the right direction better. The transition from brake sliding to throttle sliding is just a touch thing you get through experience. Just start trying it! I say an XR 100 is a great place to begin, but your bike will do fine.

Start by locking up the rear brake while straight up and down. The more you push the handlebars to one side (lean the bike over), the rear end will step out the opposite way. So if I was turning left, I'd lock up the rear, and push the bike over to the left. The rear would step out to the right. In the middle of the turn (or maybe just before that) I slowly roll the throttle on. You want to be smooth and it will be one arc from brake sliding to throttle sliding. It's a flat track kind of thing.

Put some weight on that outside peg! elbow up!

just my experience.

[LLpeteJ]

imo a good way to practice is to go out in flat sandy or grassy area. and practice large 2nd & 3rd donuts in both directions and see how low you can lay the bike down just to get the feeling between traction and breaking loose.

[Dwight_Rudder]

Brake hard with front then tap the rear to get it to slide in the direction you want it to just as you enter the corner. Transition from brake to power before the slide is complete and launch in direction you want.

Dwight

[neversettle4LCQ]

One of the most important pieces of advice I can give is to never let off the gas, when that rear wheel is spinning it has no traction. If it gains traction (slows down, caused by less power) your back end sticks causing you to have a nice lil' meeting with the ground

[Dwight_Rudder]

One of the most important pieces of advice I can give is to never let off the gas, when that rear wheel is spinning it has no traction. If it gains traction (slows down, caused by less power) your back end sticks causing you to have a nice lil' meeting with the ground

That is only with a power slide. Big difference than entering a tight corner in the woods.

Dwight

[crazybrit]

What I was taught to do at the ADMO offroad training is:

- as you approach the point you want to turn around, shift weight to outside of bike, at the extreme, inside arm is pushing down straight, outside arm bent pointing up

- apply a large amount of rear brake

bike will begin to slide towards outside

As the bike begins to slide you should be able to clutch in continue to slide the rear to almost 90 degrees until the bike has almost no momentum, then square up your stance, clutch out and gas it.

Not sure if this is a great 'woods' technique but i've found it to be a good practice technique settiing up some cones on a flat area.

I found the put away the slide rule comment really funny, I'm an engineer and a chronic overthinker. I think the above works better if you have an artistic brain and just 'feel it'.

[neversettle4LCQ]

That is only with a power slide. Big difference than entering a tight corner in the woods.

Dwight

Ooops sorry about that, i was reading previous posts such that mentioned practicing on lake beds and got confused. Scratch that.

[lateapex31]

I find that just downshifting during braking will cause the rear to step out on dirt. With the majority of the weight forward, it is pretty easy to slow the rear down by 30-40% while still keeping it rolling just by downshifting. This may or may not be the correct method, I just got a feel for it on my motard wheels and carried the same feel over to dirt. Keep in mind that I'm on a 600 4 stroke, so your engine braking may be different. The nice thing about the dirt is that everything happens at a much lower speed when compared to tarmac so you can get that feeling and some practice without taking big risks. Someone said earlier about ovals in a field and that helped me quite a lot.

[hondatom]

Now this kind of information is why I get on Thumper Talk. You guy's rock!

[rlafferty]

Hello,

Actually in my opinion, alot of the same way you brake on a road bike does apply to dirt. But, most people tend to brake slide it in, but lose alot of forward momentum. If that were the way I guess we would see, Knight, M Lafferty and other off-road heroes locking up the back wheel and sliding it in. Let me ask you this. Lock up the brakes in a grass field or in the woods....are you really in control of the motorcycle when doing that (sliding)? Its all about the approach, use more front then rear, (as Dwight said) use front then a controled dab at the rear all done with the clutch out (yes, you read that correctly) no clutch, cause when you pull in the clutch the rear wheel almost locks up instantly. A loss of momentum. Also if you incorporate a downshift into it (dont pull in the clutch) you will find you slow the bike down, but you dont lose forward momentum. The key isnt who is the fastest, but who slows down the least, anyone can hold it corner to corner and lock up the rear wheel, but how much time are you losing in each corner, which adds up. Meaning if you are losing 1/3 of a second a corner locking up the rear wheel, and there are 100 corners in a 4 mile Enduro test, how much extra time are you giving up. Try it, time yourself, do a split time. Make a line coming into a corner and one coming out and get someone to time you both ways brake sliding and the way I mention and tell me what you find. Mostly everyone finds its faster, smoother and causes less fatigue. You are not going to hurt your transmission by not using the clutch. If so I would have put in a new trans every year since I have been riding, which I have never had a problem. Motorcycle transmissoions are different then a automobile. Please try it, and let me know what you think. Next time you watch supercross, or off road stuff, watch their back wheel to see if it locks up.

I hope this helps, I am just sharing what I have learned in all my years of racing and teaching riding schools. www.rlafferty.com Thanks, Rich

[MathProf]

The key isnt who is the fastest, but who slows down the least,

This is more truth than most people can understand.

Carrying momentum through the turn instead of squareing off the turn(motocross style) is a classic example how being smooth is better than trying hard.

[denteen]

So, how would you modify this with a 2 stroke with much less engine braking?I'm trying to compare this to how I drive a car fast into a corner, brake, brake and turn, gas...same as Dwight said originally? Front brake, dab the rear to lock, turn and gas? Dennis

[osofast]

Great info!

[MathProf]

I ride a 2 stroke and , I think, you do everything on a 2 stroke that you do on a 4 stroke except you need to work the rear brake better.

The weight advantage is worth a little more rear brake.

[aytheist1]

Alot of good posts here. If you are not trying to carry speed through the corner so much as make an agressive direction change, you need lots of practice. These guys ahve explained the proper brake-slide form, you just need to make a loop with these tight flat corners and ride it to death until you learn it instinctively.? Trying to think of this thread during a race or trail ride will not make you learn it, but riding a small loop with these tight flat corners over and over again will, eventually.

[ranger392v]

I try not to lock up the rear, but to roll through the corners. Seems to be my fastest and smoothest way. May not look as fast corner to corner, but it is faster in a section for me.

[MathProf]

I try to ignore how it "feels" and focus on , say, lap times or section times.

Judging the effectiveness of techniques like "standing vs sitting" or "smooth vs aggressive" can be deceiving if you judge by how it feels.

[stlavsa]

If you start trying to hard on all these tight turns its going to wear you out quick. I honestly dont feel like there is a big secret here on getting the rear to slide.

Its about timing, and you just need to practice it. There are only a couple thngs you need to slide.

1. Momentum (from speed or acceleration)

2. Braking (its simple just lock it up)

3. Input (you might have to lean just a tad, or shift your weight a little)

I think its just as important to know how much speed to carry into the turn, as it is when to get off the brake and back on the throttle.

If you dont carry enough speed your not going to slide, too much speed, and your not going to be able to make the turn.

Heres how I think I would do it:

When your sliding into the turn, it seems to me like the bike just sets itself up to slide in the right direction probably because of the body position that your in when attacking the curve. sooooo. I make sure I have the momentum i need, lock it up, and let it do its thing (and give it some input if necessary to initiate the drift) and when u see the line you need to exit the curve, lose the brake and get back on the throttle!!

edit: I think it should be throttle, brake, throttle... Generally there shouldnt be any coasting involved in negotiation the turn.