Countersteering /steering

[lkongo]

I have understod that to turn a bike you need to initiate the turn by countersteering.

Is there any need to do the opposite of countersteering or is all the cornering done by leaning/brake/throttle?

(In other words, do you steer with the bar or is the angle created by the lean of the bike unchanged through the turn?)

(Offcourse in very low speed one have to steer only with the bar and I also understand that when the back breakes loose in a corner one have to countersteer again to "drift" and not end up on the ground)

[redrider7202]

don't over think it first off, which ur doing. at higher speeds push on the right bar to lean right, left bar to go left. at more medium speeds, i'll use more body english to lean it. at slow speeds, well, steer with the bars.

[frogman]

You steer the bike manually below the wheel speeds needed to steer the bike by gyroscopic procession.

Once the front wheel starts spinning fast enough to act as a gyroscope conventional steering doesn't work anymore so well and you have to treat your front end somewhat like a gyro, and thats why you need to initiate a turn by countersteer.

[SlowRideXT]

I think you might be overanalyzing your riding a little bit... I just say this because when I'm riding off-road, I'm "steering" or "countersteering" all the time to control the angle of the bike along with shifting my weight around and throttle/brake. All of those things combine to keep your bike at that lean. You will inevitably have to steer into the corner to correct for to much lean for a million different reasons Sometimes I probably wouldnt need to counter steer or steer at all in a corner, like when there are big berms or whatnot and I pull it off just right... I'm no expert by any means but I think if you practice alot your body weight and your bikes controls will work together to make the bike do what you want, you wont be "thinking" *should I anti-counter-steer now? * when you are about to tip over you will do it or eat dirt right? I mean, I'm forced to make small corrections all the time off-road just to go in a straight line. Anyway I say practice practice practice and ride in some deep sand at slow speeds I think you will need to use all of those things except maybe the brakes! ;p

[frogman]

Read about precession to fully understand how a motorcycle turns at speed

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession

But when you get on your motorcycle, try to never think about it, it'll interfere with your riding sensibilities.

[wr250fthrasher]

slow speed - no countersteering, drag your rear brake while steering really slowly it kinda acts as a pivot point.

medium speed - less steering more body english

high speed (squaring off or "drifting") - this is where the issue of counter steering comes into play. it is alot like "backing it in" supermoto style. slide all the way up to the tank steer the opposite was you want to turn just a little then flick it back and engage the rear brake enought to brake it loose while doing this it will throw the back end out this is where the different styles come in if you are squaring off for a berm or just coming in really really hot into a berm grab a hole lot a rear brake and slide into the berm once you feel the hit ofyou hitting the berm get onto the throttle. for drifting use the momentum of the bike and engine braking to keep the back end out and slide around the corner once you hit the apex start to roll on the throttle and straighten her up.

kinda confusing but watch videos of supermoto or dirt trackers to try to understand whats going on

[SR81]

I'll link a street site that I frequent that has some great information on countersteering. Look through the tips there are several topics on it. And for those who will start to banter "well that's on the street it doesn't apply" wrong. The physics of a two wheel vehicle are the same. Bicycle, dirt bike or street bike. There may be some different variables but the physics behind them are all the same.

Anyway here's the link.

Just browse through the tips there are several topics on countersteering. There are also good topics on CoG, weight transfer, rake and trail angles. Lots and lots of good stuff. You can always hop onto the physics forum and ask questions. Frogman, I think you'd dig the physics forum there. There are lots of good discussions in there.

[jorigo]

In order to turn in the dirt you must take your body close to the gas tank, elbows up, and transfer all the weight to the peg that is in the opposite side of the turn, also your knee in the outer side push the tank inside the turn, all this while you lean at the inside of the turn, the foot in the peg in the outer side of the curve plus the throttle control the side drag, this way you can cut the curve and put the front of the bike towards the end of the curve.

regards.

[SlickitySloan]

I love hearing countersteering debates. I coutersteer all the time and usually I have trouble when I forget about it. You counter steer at low steeds but the forces are much less. On a off road bike or motocross bike the forces are much lower and at low speed in the tight woods you can do a lot with weighting the pegs.

I counter steer at the motocross track and off road all the time to keep a better line or get over to the smooth line to the side while banging through the bumps with it pinned. When you are standing you cannot push anymore because your arms are in no position to push. They are when you are on a road bike tucked in where your forearms are 90degrees to the steering head. Standing up you have to twist the bars in the opposite direction and Bang, you are on the smooth line right beside the rough shit.

Why do they always say "keep your elbows up." because it helps you counter steeer by pulling the ooutside bar towards you or eliminating the push that your arm will have if your elbow is down making you run wide.

Try to ride your bicycle slowly, no hands. lean forward so your arms are 90 degrees to the steering head and push ever so slightly on the bar. Which way did you turn?

I don't buy the presision thing at all. They say that bacause you are turning the wheel in the oppsite direction it induces the lean. Fine if your wheel is not in contact with the ground. It makes you lose your balance and then you fall over when your wheels are on the ground. The lean induced by falling over is a way bigger input and it has the effect of turning your front wheel into the turn along with all the steering geometery.

Try riding your bicycle again and following the yellow line on a road. if you think about countersteering and give small inputs without leaning your body you will hold a tighter line and not get all hanging off.

You know how radio controlled motorcycles turn? They countersteer.

[frogman]

Remember this: Precession is the property of a gyroscope whereas the gyro will move in the opposite direction of an applied torque 90 degrees in the direction of spin.

If you push forward on the axle on the left side the wheel will turn to the left, if you push forward on the axle on the right side, the wheel will turn right, that is precession.

That is a hard and fast rule in gyroscopic principle.

It always works the same, thats how gyroscopes work, the front wheel of a motorcycle at speed is a gyroscope, thats how come we can do the cool things we do on a motorcycle, it is gyroscope stabilized.

And a good rider should want to learn everything there is to know about gyroscopes.

Because all a motorcycle rider is is a semi-rigid gimble in a triple-gyro, semi-stable, movable platform.

[lkongo]

Thanks for the input everybody!

The reason I am thinking about this is mainly because I belive the reason that my front weel washes sometimes is that I make a steering input to the bar (I am probably to stiff) and oversteer it.

The countersteering is there and I don't have to think about that but the thing I'm not shure of is steering (the opposite of countersteering). I belive that's never nessessary in speeds over 15mph and will probably make the front wheel whash.

Is that correct?

Is steering an error at higher speeds?

opinons?

[llamaface]

Once the front wheel starts spinning fast enough to act as a gyroscope conventional steering doesn't work anymore so well and you have to treat your front end somewhat like a gyro, and thats why you need to initiate a turn by countersteer.

You need to countersteer at slower speeds too, or otherwise endeavour to get your weight over to the side you want to turn towards. Otherwise you will certainly tip over. Fortunately, it doesn't take long for this all to become pretty instinctive.

[llamaface]

The reason I am thinking about this is mainly because I belive the reason that my front weel washes sometimes is that I make a steering input to the bar (I am probably to stiff) and oversteer it.

A very common cause of front wheel washout is letting off the throttle in mid turn. Under steady throttle, the front wheel is usually pretty happy, but if you roll off the throttle too suddenly it will often wash out.

Also, if you are using engine braking instead of the rear brake coming into corners, that can cause front wheel washouts too. As you get down to a slow speed, the engine is no longer braking, and starts pushing you, esp if the idle is set high.

Also make sure you are getting your weight forward, and make sure the bike is leaned considerably more than you.

[lkongo]

A very common cause of front wheel washout is letting off the throttle in mid turn. Under steady throttle, the front wheel is usually pretty happy, but if you roll off the throttle too suddenly it will often wash out.

Also, if you are using engine braking instead of the rear brake coming into corners, that can cause front wheel washouts too. As you get down to a slow speed, the engine is no longer braking, and starts pushing you, esp if the idle is set high.

Also make sure you are getting your weight forward, and make sure the bike is leaned considerably more than you.

In fact I often only use engine brake/front brake. I have to learn to use the backbrake better. I ride a 650 thumper though so the engine brake is good but as the rev. gets lower I can be in trouble !

Your points really make sense!

Thanks.

[NiceUserName]

This has been a very helpful and enlightening thread for me - sounds like I need to quit thinking about what I'm doing and just ride!

[llamaface]

This has been a very helpful and enlightening thread for me - sounds like I need to quit thinking about what I'm doing and just ride!

LOL, what I find helpful is to think of some drill to focus intently on 1 thing and think about it, and do it for 10-15 mins. Then forget about it and go ride and let instinct take over.