VARG EX Electric Enduro bike. Anyone getting this?

[Ud_Luz]

1 hour ago, William1 said:

Right, I never thought about the water pump! All Vargs have fans?

Buck converting is kind of wasteful,. so at some point other methods are preferred.

How many hours at easy trail riding do you think you could go?

I'm averaging roughly 38 miles at a decent pace.

[Slackkinhard]

4 minutes ago, Ud_Luz said:

I'm averaging roughly 38 miles at a decent pace.

that's pretty much what ya get out of these surron things. 19 miles out, and 19 miles back one way or another where an ICE enduro bike with a stock tank gets closer to 30 out and 30 back. My buddy has done everything under the sun to get more range, but since he lives in Kalispell and everything out is up hill and everything back is down hill, he averages about 40 miles of range using the regenerative braking to get home. It's always somewhat of a stress though and he's used to walking the last mile home. 

[mr.skywalker]

Thats better range than I ever go on my ron, I was having voltage cutouts in my actual ride mode(had eco mode as backup for crawling out) at around 20-25miles. This was with 3-3.5kwh batteries. If my wife was riding she would over double the range but she wasnt doing the climbs and trails I was. Sounds like the stark would double my range but my surron was not setup for good range, just outright capability in hard enduro(armor, moto suspension/brakes, and heavy gummy tires). When it was bone stock I go about 17-20miles. Its funny talking to the street kids who get like 70miles on the same battery bc they dont realize how much energy is lost accelerating over and over and they also think their mtb brakes are sufficient lol This is why the Stark actually impresses me if its getting 40miles in same terrain I ride bc even on my gas bikes once I get to 30miles I cant even hold on the bars anymore from cramping and Ive been riding for a true 4-5hrs at that point.

[Slackkinhard]

38 minutes ago, mr.skywalker said:

Thats better range than I ever go on my ron, I was having voltage cutouts in my actual ride mode(had eco mode as backup for crawling out) at around 20-25miles. This was with 3-3.5kwh batteries. If my wife was riding she would over double the range but she wasnt doing the climbs and trails I was. Sounds like the stark would double my range but my surron was not setup for good range, just outright capability in hard enduro(armor, moto suspension/brakes, and heavy gummy tires). When it was bone stock I go about 17-20miles. Its funny talking to the street kids who get like 70miles on the same battery bc they dont realize how much energy is lost accelerating over and over and they also think their mtb brakes are sufficient lol This is why the Stark actually impresses me if its getting 40miles in same terrain I ride bc even on my gas bikes once I get to 30miles I cant even hold on the bars anymore from cramping and Ive been riding for a true 4-5hrs at that point.

he's not riding anything hard, and he's not a big guy (165lb).  Just cruises around the hills with his kids. He's got several with differing setups. If ya have a long descent coming back to the truck, the regen braking adds a few miles. He's funny though, always trying to go a little further and somehow limp back. If it were me, I hate pushing a dirt bike, I'd be more conservative.

[wallybean]

I guess it is only a matter of time before they can produce a 500 wh/kg solid state battery that will survive in a dirt bike.  That will get about 2.5 times the range of current 21700 batteries for the same weight.  Of course that is 10 years down the road and I probably don't have that long.  Like Skywalker said, I am only good for about 30 miles at this point.  

[mr.skywalker]

42 minutes ago, Slackkinhard said:

he's not riding anything hard, and he's not a big guy (165lb).  Just cruises around the hills with his kids. He's got several with differing setups. If ya have a long descent coming back to the truck, the regen braking adds a few miles. He's funny though, always trying to go a little further and somehow limp back. If it were me, I hate pushing a dirt bike, I'd be more conservative.

That makes sense then. My buddy on a stock one gets 30miles to my 20 on a stock battery so my 3.5kwh battery would get him to the 40-50 range easily without even having regen lever. Btw im only 135lbs so weight is actually in my favor here lol

[bweighmaster]

I'm keeping up on this varg story .   Seems like there just is'nt enough range for these things to take anything/ anyone to the next level ... Not enough improvement to show in the last 3-4 years to rattle my cage ..   Up the level to about  60 mi.  Without all that HP. CLAIMS ..  Nobody really needs a 60 hp bike for enjoyment . ..   Gimme my old TTR 125 with 15 hp. And all day fuel tank ....

[Slackkinhard]

32 minutes ago, bweighmaster said:

I'm keeping up on this varg story .   Seems like there just is'nt enough range for these things to take anything/ anyone to the next level ... Not enough improvement to show in the last 3-4 years to rattle my cage ..   Up the level to about  60 mi.  Without all that HP. CLAIMS ..  Nobody really needs a 60 hp bike for enjoyment . ..   Gimme my old TTR 125 with 15 hp. And all day fuel tank ....

another concern for me is the resale value after 2yrs?  Much like the cars, its still out there if they will be repairable. Seems like we could design a more modular vehicle that supports replacement

Edited December 10, 2024 by Slackkinhard

[bweighmaster]

I would think , after 2 -3 years they would be pretty much done for as far as battery , and heat cycle deterioration ... What would the value be ?   How about re-cycle value , or  pollution from the chemicals in batteries ?   All of great concern .....

[Ud_Luz]

8 minutes ago, bweighmaster said:

I would think , after 2 -3 years they would be pretty much done for as far as battery , and heat cycle deterioration ... What would the value be ?   How about re-cycle value , or  pollution from the chemicals in batteries ?   All of great concern .....

They're claiming worst case 500 charge cycles. Trail riders likely will get well over 1,000.

Let's say trail riders average 3 hours per charge, a bit on the low side. 

Now, anyone here EVER put 3,000 hours on their dirt bike?

[bweighmaster]

11 minutes ago, Ud_Luz said:

They're claiming worsr case 500 charge cycles. Trail riders likely will get well over 1,000.

Let's say trail riders average 3 hours per charge, a bit on the low side. 

Now, anyone here EVER put 3,000 hours on their dirt bike?

Claiming ...    No real results  ?  Have'nt seen any  real world  tests on any bikes over a 5 yr. Period ...

Welcoming the real results printed by independant test facilities .....  

No speak of the re-cycling  ?     Where are those results  ?   

Not trying to be a doubting Thomas ,  Just wanting real world facts ......

 

[Ud_Luz]

10 minutes ago, bweighmaster said:

Claiming ...    No real results  ?  Have'nt seen any  real world  tests on any bikes over a 5 yr. Period ...

Welcoming the real results printed by independant test facilities .....  

No speak of the re-cycling  ?     Where are those results  ?   

Not trying to be a doubting Thomas ,  Just wanting real world facts ......

It's extremely easy to extrapolate by the battery cells they use, this isn't rocket science. The cells are Japanese 1st grade lithium iron phosphate cells which should be good for around 3,000 to 4,000 cycles depending on how you treat them.

Of course running the bike at 60+ horsepower in motocross and then turning around and immediately charging them at the max 3.3kw between races is going to generate heat and shorten the life. The "500" cycles I'd say, based on the cells used, is WAY beyond conservative. Trail riders at lower hp settings and charging say at half charge, which 120v provides, might well see 2,000 to 3,000+ cycles before 80% capacity. 

Don't need independent tests when you already have many thousands of results using particular cells. You can build it and then guarantee x number of cycles. I believe Stark is being extraordinarily conservative in their estimates. 

Every battery failure I've heard of has not been the cells but have been battery management. This is wholly expected versus actually cell failure. These cells are also used in EVs with thousands of them in the battery packs. It's been extremely rare there's been a pack failure due to the cells, even with dozens of times more of them in a pack than the Stark uses.

Already the Stark battery packs have dropped half in price. I expect the packs to likely be somewhere around $1,500 by the end of 2026, no more than the cost of rebuilding a 4 stroke that won't last 5% as long as a battery pack. They have probably hit a wall for the next three years as far as total capacity. The new cells used in the enduro version have a higher energy density but their track record so far has been exceptional. Being an EE sort of makes electrical stuff my favourite thing.

I've had no issue riding all morning, plugging in during lunch and then finishing out the afternoon. The bike isn't going to work in Colorado because of range but everyplace else I ride, no issue. I'll keep the 300 for Colorado. It feels like a 125 on the trails with the 30 lb lighter KTM feeling like a tanker in comparison.

Stark just destroyed the new KTM e-enduro bike. If I were to guess Stark is going to wind up like Tesla, the legacy manufacturers aren't ever going to be able to catch up or compete.

https://www.ktm.com/en-us/models/electric/freeride/2025-ktm-freeridee.html

 

 

[Ud_Luz]

2 minutes ago, bweighmaster said:

Still ,  nothing but claims .  Usually from varg themselves ...  As stated ,  No real , results from actual owners after 5 yrs. , or Any independant printed results ..

You should be able to understand my side of the fence ,....... Reality......,  I want , Independant , Real world results from Indepandant , Non biased sources ....

Can't find any ..  Just more claims from owners , and , varg .....  

I really don't know what to say. It's extremely easy to look up the cells used and their performance. Of course that would take a slight amount of work on your part which isn't as easy as having something handed to you on a platter.

As an electrical engineer I can tell you without any testing what the expected results are on something I built. I believe Stark is being EXTREMELY conservative on their ratings. 

I can build you a battery pack on my bench and based on the parts I use can with very great confidence tell you what it's going to do. It's easy when you are using off the shelf batteries, which Stark is, to determine this. The reality is Stark is just using the specifications provided by the cell manufacturer which are tested by them, not Stark. The 21700 cell, which is the likely cell, is worst case scenario 500 cycles in a heavy charge/discharge test cycle with a 15 minute rest between cycles, WAY worse than what anyone could possibly do in actual use. 

It's kind of like say Boeing when they sell a 737 to American Airlines and tells them the engine has a MTBF of 10,000 hours. Boeing didn't come up with this, GE or Rolls Royce did. 

[KatoKonvert]

This bike would potentially work very well for me. I live in Sydney & really only ride semi-urban tech spots with only occasional longer, faster rides. We share these trails with runners, dog walkers, mtb’ers & horse riders. Range of up to 6hrs in hard enduro terrain is enough for me. The Enduro 21/Taddy video on YT is transparent on range/ride time. Adapting to lh rear brake & no clutch are the only issues I can see for me. Next to no maintenance, ride, wash, charge, repeat. All my home power comes from the sun & wind anyway. Pretty negligible running costs - although I bet plastics, etc are hideously expensive direct from Stark. 😅

[KatoKonvert]

5 minutes ago, KatoKonvert said:

This bike would potentially work very well for me. I live in Sydney & really only ride semi-urban tech spots with only occasional longer, faster rides. We share these trails with runners, dog walkers, mtb’ers & horse riders. Range of up to 6hrs in hard enduro terrain is enough for me. The Enduro 21/Taddy video on YT is transparent on range/ride time. Adapting to lh rear brake & no clutch are the only issues I can see for me. Next to no maintenance, ride, wash, charge, repeat. All my home power comes from the sun & wind anyway. Pretty negligible running costs - although I bet plastics, etc are hideously expensive direct from Stark. 😅

Strike that about plastics, etc - I just checked on the Aussie website & they are cheaper than Beta! 

[mr.skywalker]

Looking at surron which have much lower build quality, outside of operator modification(bypassing the discharge of the bms is/was common when upgrading controller) or occasional bms failures, stock batteries from 2018-2020 are still going strong with +10'ks miles with no issues. Not to mention there are thousands of ebike batteries used on commuters that are cycled every day for years and the cell testing matches the specs outlined by cell manufactures where they hold well over 80% capacity(this is worst case with rapid repeated torture test in spec sheets btw). So like Luz said, its really very rare to have cell issues, its more often the electrical controls, ie BMS, which should prove to be replaceable. My guess is less than $500 if they offer it as a replacement part but batteries are already in $3k range anyway from when they were $7k at introduction. These arent like teslas where everything is unrepairable and insanely expensive, but they do also have 2yr warranty, what other mfg of gas bikes offer any warranty on MX bike? And yes people have had issues but Stark has covered it under warranty.

Edited December 11, 2024 by mr.skywalker

[Ud_Luz]

7 hours ago, KatoKonvert said:

This bike would potentially work very well for me. I live in Sydney & really only ride semi-urban tech spots with only occasional longer, faster rides. We share these trails with runners, dog walkers, mtb’ers & horse riders. Range of up to 6hrs in hard enduro terrain is enough for me. The Enduro 21/Taddy video on YT is transparent on range/ride time. Adapting to lh rear brake & no clutch are the only issues I can see for me. Next to no maintenance, ride, wash, charge, repeat. All my home power comes from the sun & wind anyway. Pretty negligible running costs - although I bet plastics, etc are hideously expensive direct from Stark. 😅

The plastics are cheap.

KTM just screwed my $75 for an airbox cover on the 300.