2020/2021 KTM 250 XCW for a rookie??

[Johnnygofast]

*I tried submitting this before but I don't think it worked, apologies if repost


So I'm finally going to take the dive and buy a bike.

Some background, I'm 30 something, 6'4" 225# who used to ride friends dirt bikes and ATVs growing up but never owned one myself. For the first time in 15 years I got back on a bike and went riding with an enthusiast friend two weeks ago and had a blast. We went again a few days ago and I am hooked. Setting was  open woods trails with some fairly tough rutted out steep climbs and some roots/rocks, I wouldn't call them beginner friendly trails by any means, but no single track or anything crazy technical.

He has a KTM 250 XCF and a Beta 200rr. First day I rode the KTM second day I hopped onto the beta. Far and away I enjoyed the 2 stroke more. After going back and forth I REALLY started to prefer the 2 stroke. I quickly hated the engine breaking on the KTM and it felt like a tank to maneuver. The Beta 200 was what I imagined a dirt bike should feel like. And that zippy power band is just awesome. The bike was definitely small though, as my friend is only 5'7".

Now, I'm obviously a total rookie but my friend did note that I was way better than he expected and on the 2nd day was having to keep up when i was on then the beta. I very quickly became comfortable with the gearing and throttle response, comfortably up shifting or downshifting even on climbs to remain in the power band. The beta was definitely Holy shit fast, but I wasn't scared of the power. I definitely wasn't looking for MORE power though. I was ripping pretty good in 3rd gear but probably not WOT and that felt plenty fast and snappy.

So now I'm way deep into researching bikes and I keep coming back to the 2020 or 2021 KTM 250 XCW. I will be relocating to the greater SF Bay area. I will be your typical weekend warrior, but I'm not planning on racing or being so aggressive that I seriously risk injury, but I was having a hell of a time riding the pipe in 2nd and 3rd on that 2 stroke.

My questions:

Is this too much bike for a rookie given the above background? I realize this is a pretty premium bike, but it's within budget. I'm slightly worried that the bike will eat my lunch and that I'm over confident after an afternoon of "handling" the beta 200rr.

Opinions on the XC vs XCW for the typical open flowy trails that seem to be prominent in the Bay area? 

Anyone strongly push for the 300 instead? I've read all about the differences and am kind of stuck between the two. Would really love to hear from anyone familiar with both, or specifically with knowledge of the bay area rides.

As far as set up after purchase - I understand I will need to replace the rear spring for weight, that seems to be <$100 and easy enough to do. Some sources seem to suggest that I will need to redo the front springs too but others disagree. Thoughts? Is revalving also a must or just springs? Ride the new bike first as is or just get the springs done so I can set the sag and such correctly to start?
Figured I may need to drop the foot pegs too given my 6'4" frame. Recommendations?  Will I also need to raise the handle bars and move them up or am I getting way overboard here.

Thanks for reading and any advice.

Any other thoughts or comments?

[Turboloader]

5 hours ago, Johnnygofast said:

*I tried submitting this before but I don't think it worked, apologies if repost


So I'm finally going to take the dive and buy a bike.

Some background, I'm 30 something, 6'4" 225# who used to ride friends dirt bikes and ATVs growing up but never owned one myself. For the first time in 15 years I got back on a bike and went riding with an enthusiast friend two weeks ago and had a blast. We went again a few days ago and I am hooked. Setting was  open woods trails with some fairly tough rutted out steep climbs and some roots/rocks, I wouldn't call them beginner friendly trails by any means, but no single track or anything crazy technical.

He has a KTM 250 XCF and a Beta 200rr. First day I rode the KTM second day I hopped onto the beta. Far and away I enjoyed the 2 stroke more. After going back and forth I REALLY started to prefer the 2 stroke. I quickly hated the engine breaking on the KTM and it felt like a tank to maneuver. The Beta 200 was what I imagined a dirt bike should feel like. And that zippy power band is just awesome. The bike was definitely small though, as my friend is only 5'7".

Now, I'm obviously a total rookie but my friend did note that I was way better than he expected and on the 2nd day was having to keep up when i was on then the beta. I very quickly became comfortable with the gearing and throttle response, comfortably up shifting or downshifting even on climbs to remain in the power band. The beta was definitely Holy shit fast, but I wasn't scared of the power. I definitely wasn't looking for MORE power though. I was ripping pretty good in 3rd gear but probably not WOT and that felt plenty fast and snappy.

So now I'm way deep into researching bikes and I keep coming back to the 2020 or 2021 KTM 250 XCW. I will be relocating to the greater SF Bay area. I will be your typical weekend warrior, but I'm not planning on racing or being so aggressive that I seriously risk injury, but I was having a hell of a time riding the pipe in 2nd and 3rd on that 2 stroke.

My questions:

Is this too much bike for a rookie given the above background? I realize this is a pretty premium bike, but it's within budget. I'm slightly worried that the bike will eat my lunch and that I'm over confident after an afternoon of "handling" the beta 200rr.

Opinions on the XC vs XCW for the typical open flowy trails that seem to be prominent in the Bay area? 

Anyone strongly push for the 300 instead? I've read all about the differences and am kind of stuck between the two. Would really love to hear from anyone familiar with both, or specifically with knowledge of the bay area rides.

As far as set up after purchase - I understand I will need to replace the rear spring for weight, that seems to be <$100 and easy enough to do. Some sources seem to suggest that I will need to redo the front springs too but others disagree. Thoughts? Is revalving also a must or just springs? Ride the new bike first as is or just get the springs done so I can set the sag and such correctly to start?
Figured I may need to drop the foot pegs too given my 6'4" frame. Recommendations?  Will I also need to raise the handle bars and move them up or am I getting way overboard here.

Thanks for reading and any advice.

Any other thoughts or comments?

Get the 300, less work, mo fun..

[pat22043]

Get the 300 XCW, 2017 or newer model. The 300 two stroke is easier to ride than the 250 (and easier than smaller two strokes). Lots of brands make great 300cc two strokes, KTM, Husqv, Beta, Sherco, others.  Contrary to what most folks think, the 250 and the 300 are about equally fast. The 250 revs a bit quicker since it piston and related stuff is smaller and lighter. The 300s have very linear power that pulls from idle on up to Wow that is fast.

I'm a bit shorter than you and a bit heavier. I am also old and my joints don't move the way they used to. My 300 has lowered foot pegs and raised handle bars, which makes the cockpit area bigger and doesn't require me to fold my body up like a paperclip.

You can ride any of the 250 or 300s stock, but at your weight, once you have some experience, you will really want to get your suspension setup with proper springs and valving for your weight. Most bikes are design for someone about 165 to 170 lbs, and we big guys need stronger springs and a bit more dampening.

[Doc_d]

The 250 or 300 XC-W TPI are fantastic bikes.   The 250 has less torque on the bottom and is little freer reving at the top.  The 300 lugs amazingly right down to idle and makes things a little easier when the going get tough.   Both are easy to ride assuming you have basic throttle and clutch control down.  If you were fine on the 200 with no whiskey throttling, you'll be fine on either.   It just depends on your riding style.  I went with the 300 and enjoy it.  I'm sure I'd have been just as happy with the 250 but maybe for different reasons. 

Regardless of which you get, at 225 pounds you'll be 250 pounds with gear.  The stock bikes come sprung for a rider + gear weight up to 187 pounds.   Plan to respring it.   It's not a big deal.  It doesn't make sense to spend top dollar on a state of the art bike and then ride around on springs that are completely wrong for your weight.  It take about 10 minutes to do the shock (PDS rocks from that aspect!).  You can do the forks with them still on the bike.  That takes maybe 45 minutes to an hour taking your time.  I highly recommend going with the spring recommendations in the manual and then buying the actual WP springs from someplace like Rocky Mountain.   Even my dealer tried to order me aftermarket springs that were the wrong rate and the shock spring wasn't progressively wound.  That was the same story even when I called big suspension shops.   Don't trust anyone, use the manual recommendations and order the actual WP springs yourself.

Doc

Edited July 2, 2020 by Doc_d

[EmpireofDerp]

You are definitely over confident. Get the 300. 

[SilvFx]

I agree about getting the 300 XC-W vs. 250 XCW.  I am also more in favor of a true wide ratio transmission in the XC-W vs. XC.

All that being said.....you mentioned CA and most of us dont know the rules, but everything that I have read says that there are limited times you can operate a 2 stroke (assume this applies to the TPI bikes).  So, for maximum flexibility, you may want to consider the 4 stroke EXC-F bikes such as the 300 or 500.  They are going to be street legal dirt bikes that I think will allow you to operate anywhere OHVs are allowed as well as county roads and any roads that are need to connect riding loops.

BUT....do your research on that issue and dont take my word for it from a Colorado rider.

FYI....the KTM/Husky 350 is a real breakthough bike in that the 350 XCF-W is only six pounds heavier than the 300 XC-W two stroke.  For years, the 4 strokes have typically been 20-30 lbs heavier than their 2 stroke counterpart.

[Johnnygofast]

On 7/1/2020 at 6:32 PM, pat22043 said:

Get the 300 XCW, 2017 or newer model. The 300 two stroke is easier to ride than the 250 (and easier than smaller two strokes). Lots of brands make great 300cc two strokes, KTM, Husqv, Beta, Sherco, others.  Contrary to what most folks think, the 250 and the 300 are about equally fast. The 250 revs a bit quicker since it piston and related stuff is smaller and lighter. The 300s have very linear power that pulls from idle on up to Wow that is fast.

I'm a bit shorter than you and a bit heavier. I am also old and my joints don't move the way they used to. My 300 has lowered foot pegs and raised handle bars, which makes the cockpit area bigger and doesn't require me to fold my body up like a paperclip.

You can ride any of the 250 or 300s stock, but at your weight, once you have some experience, you will really want to get your suspension setup with proper springs and valving for your weight. Most bikes are design for someone about 165 to 170 lbs, and we big guys need stronger springs and a bit more dampening.

Thanks for the thoughts. 

Ive seem the comment about the more linear power band on the 300. I trust it will still have that more sudden snappy power that I want from a 2 stroke?  I much preferred the power delivery of the beta 200 compared to the ktm 250 xcf.  They both go Holy shit fast but I really preferred the throttle on the 2 stroke.  Less twitchy in that first 1/8 twist followed by zoooooom. 

 

What about engine breaking between the 2? 

[pat22043]

4 minutes ago, Johnnygofast said:

the more linear power band on the 300. I trust it will still have that more sudden snappy power that I want from a 2 stroke? ....to the ktm 250 xcf.  They both go Holy shit fast but I really preferred the throttle on the 2 stroke.  

What about engine breaking between the 2? 

There is essentially no engine braking on a two stroke. Nothing like all of the four strokes. You just learn to use the rear brake.
I had a KTM 250 XCF right before I bought my 300 XCW. The XCF was a good bike. IMHO, the 250F was too soft at low revs, there was not much power or torque until you got on the cam and then it was fast. So the 250F had a much narrower power band than the 300 two stroke.

I'm not sure what you mean by sudden snappy power, for me the 300 XCW is super linear from just above idle to redline. But the prior two stroke that I owned were Yamaha TZ road racers. The one I rode before I got onto the dirt a few years back was 35+ years ago, on a Yamaha TZ750. That bike would not pull first gear without abusing the clutch until 7000 RPM, and didn't really even run cleanly in first until 8K. Then it would pull faster than you could shift to about 12K, topping out at 175 to 180 MPH. That was sudden snappy power.

The KTM 300 is nothing like that. Its nearly impossible to stall the 300. What videos of Graham Jarvis or Jonny Walker at Erzberg in "carl's diner"

[Johnnygofast]

13 hours ago, Doc_d said:

The 250 or 300 XC-W TPI are fantastic bikes.   The 250 has less torque on the bottom and is little freer reving at the top.  The 300 lugs amazingly right down to idle and makes things a little easier when the going get tough.   Both are easy to ride assuming you have basic throttle and clutch control down.  If you were fine on the 200 with no whiskey throttling, you'll be fine on either.   It just depends on your riding style.  I went with the 300 and enjoy it.  I'm sure I'd have been just as happy with the 250 but maybe for different reasons. 

Regardless of which you get, at 225 pounds you'll be 250 pounds with gear.  The stock bikes come sprung for a rider + gear weight up to 187 pounds.   Plan to respring it.   It's not a big deal.  It doesn't make sense to spend top dollar on a state of the art bike and then ride around on springs that are completely wrong for your weight.  It take about 10 minutes to do the shock (PDS rocks from that aspect!).  You can do the forks with them still on the bike.  That takes maybe 45 minutes to an hour taking your time.  I highly recommend going with the spring recommendations in the manual and then buying the actual WP springs from someplace like Rocky Mountain.   Even my dealer tried to order me aftermarket springs that were the wrong rate and the shock spring wasn't progressively wound.  That was the same story even when I called big suspension shops.   Don't trust anyone, use the manual recommendations and order the actual WP springs yourself.

Doc

Thanks for the reply. 

 

So no revalving? Just springs in front and back? 

The pds shock spring looks like a piece of cake.  The front shock is slightly more intimidating after watching a few videos. None made it seem like a simple swap. Some had to grind, others took the fork off etc.  What do you figure is ballpark cost to get it done including parts? 

 

As far as the 300, my only hesitation is that the "more linear" power band will feel like a  4 stroke, where as I strongly preferred the power delivery of the beta 200 vs the 250f.  I suspect I'm over thinking this but those 2 bikes and the recent 2 days of riding are my sole understanding of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke characteristics. 

[Doc_d]

8 minutes ago, Johnnygofast said:

Thanks for the reply. 

 

So no revalving? Just springs in front and back? 

The pds shock spring looks like a piece of cake.  The front shock is slightly more intimidating after watching a few videos. None made it seem like a simple swap. Some had to grind, others took the fork off etc.  What do you figure is ballpark cost to get it done including parts? 

 

As far as the 300, my only hesitation is that the "more linear" power band will feel like a  4 stroke, where as I strongly preferred the power delivery of the beta 200 vs the 250f.  I suspect I'm over thinking this but those 2 bikes and the recent 2 days of riding are my sole understanding of 2 stroke vs 4 stroke characteristics. 

I've ridden a Beta 200RR.  I own a KTM 350 (4-stroke) and 300.  LOL! You will not be disappointed by a 300.  While it's maybe more linear than an old school motocross 2-stroke, it's still a 300 2-stroke.  It still runs just like a 2-stroke and has a hit when it gets on the pipe.  There is no engine braking and it doesn't have that snatchy throttle tip-in.  It'll actually have a lot more snap than the 200.  Trust me, you're not going to mistake a 300 for a 4-stroke.

I wouldn't revalve especially as a newer rider.  

Doing the fork springs is no big deal.   No grinding or anything else weird needed.   You just unbolt the handle bars, loosen the top of the triple clamps, unscrew the top cap from the tubes, put something under the front wheel to keep the fork compress / springs up, pull off the top caps, pull out the old spring, drop in the new spring and put it back together the opposite way.  You'll need a top-cap wrench and a thin open ended wrench (22mm or 24mm I'd have to check).

Doc

[Doc_d]

Here's my '20 300 XC-W TPI...

 

[8675309]

250 xcw is not too much bike. Just go buy one. You will not regret it.

[motrock93b]

On 7/2/2020 at 11:07 AM, SilvFx said:

I agree about getting the 300 XC-W vs. 250 XCW.  I am also more in favor of a true wide ratio transmission in the XC-W vs. XC.

All that being said.....you mentioned CA and most of us dont know the rules, but everything that I have read says that there are limited times you can operate a 2 stroke (assume this applies to the TPI bikes).  So, for maximum flexibility, you may want to consider the 4 stroke EXC-F bikes such as the 300 or 500.  They are going to be street legal dirt bikes that I think will allow you to operate anywhere OHVs are allowed as well as county roads and any roads that are need to connect riding loops.

BUT....do your research on that issue and dont take my word for it from a Colorado rider.

This. For example, if you wanted to go ride your new bike today, any of the two strokes wouldn’t be allowed at public parks like Hollister Hills. Same for any modern 4T MX bike. If you wish to ride year round, you may wish to research CA’s Green Sticker/Red Sticker registration laws. 2002 and older bikes are grandfathered, so can be granted the desireable Green Sticker certificate. Red Sticker bikes have limitations. 

[NORTY]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:15 PM, Doc_d said:

 

Doing the fork springs is no big deal.   No grinding or anything else weird needed.   You just unbolt the handle bars, loosen the top of the triple clamps, unscrew the top cap from the tubes, put something under the front wheel to keep the fork compress / springs up, pull off the top caps, pull out the old spring, drop in the new spring and put it back together the opposite way.  You'll need a top-cap wrench and a thin open ended wrench (22mm or 24mm I'd have to check).

Doc

If you're going to go thru the expense of replacing springs, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE change your fork oil too. Fork oil is one of the most neglected things on a motorcycle. This would also be the opportunity to experiment with viscosities and "super slippery" formulas to reduce "stiction."

[Doc_d]

28 minutes ago, NORTY said:

If you're going to go thru the expense of replacing springs, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE change your fork oil too. Fork oil is one of the most neglected things on a motorcycle. This would also be the opportunity to experiment with viscosities and "super slippery" formulas to reduce "stiction."

Just my opinion but I wouldn't touch the fork oil on a brand new bike.  You have no baseline to compare to yet.  Especially for a newer rider.  You have to change the fork oil at hour 30.  So I'd at least run the stock oil that long and get a feel for the bike.  

Doc

[NORTY]

1 minute ago, Doc_d said:

Just my opinion but I wouldn't touch the fork oil on a brand new bike.  You have no baseline to compare to yet.  Especially for a newer rider.  You have to change the fork oil at hour 30.  So I'd at least run the stock oil that long and get a feel for the bike.  

Doc

Very true. I didn't realize it was a new unit here. 

Your advice is sound. 

 

Carry on!

[lost1750GTV]

" I owned were Yamaha TZ road racers. The one I rode before I got onto the dirt a few years back was 35+ years ago, on a Yamaha TZ750. That bike would not pull first gear without abusing the clutch until 7000 RPM, and didn't really even run cleanly in first until 8K. Then it would pull faster than you could shift to about 12K, topping out at 175 to 180 MPH. That was" - about as far as you can get from a 2 stroke trials engine.

just a TZ250 guy here., now with a light but tractable beta 200 for MA woods. a little zippy when wanted though.

I'd go along with your comments on a 300 being tractable (easy) power - as long as someone has some throttle control.

other than that, I just wanted to quote the TZ750 stuff! oh, dirtbikes, one heck of a flat tracker.

 

[kylektm]

I'll go against the grain a little and reccomend the xc. California has a lot more wide open faster type riding, and lots of mx tracks. The xc is more of a versatile bike than the xcw in my opinion. The xcw is only better in real slow 1st and 2nd gear stuff. Which I dont think is very common in socal. And the xc is even decent if you want to try your hand at mx. Plus it has air forks, so you wouldn't have to worry about new springs. 

[Johnnygofast]

Thanks for all the replies. The last few days I really hit a road block regarding the red sticker vs green sticker in California. Such a massive bummer. I really really preferred the 2 stroke over the 4 and now it feels like that's not really an option. I read something about the red sticker law may go away in 2022 and all red stickers would be grandfathered in, but didn't find anything official to suggest that, only speculation.

So now i'm stuck in this no mans land of not really wanting a 4 stroke but seems it's the better choice.

Somebody mentioned that there are some regulations about pre 2002 - I would only buy new. Does that mean I'm hosed on a new 350 XCF too?!

[Johnnygofast]

On 7/4/2020 at 8:49 AM, motrock93b said:

This. For example, if you wanted to go ride your new bike today, any of the two strokes wouldn’t be allowed at public parks like Hollister Hills. Same for any modern 4T MX bike. If you wish to ride year round, you may wish to research CA’s Green Sticker/Red Sticker registration laws. 2002 and older bikes are grandfathered, so can be granted the desireable Green Sticker certificate. Red Sticker bikes have limitations. 

'm new to the area - how limited are the year round riding options for a 2 stroke?

And regarding new bikes - are you suggesting a 2020 350xcf would not green sticker? I realize a lot of guys ride older bikes that are great, but I'm looking to buy new and keep it for 10 years.