hawaiidirtrider

Beta MX ?

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Europe MX is far different than USA MX. Another issue is Beta buying a rider to race here in MX that can run with the top riders. Without a top 5 finish would make the bike look bad. I think the CC version would be a great GNCC bike like what Whibley has. Changing an MX bike into a enduro is far easier than the other way, still not cheap.

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Europe MX is far different than USA MX. Another issue is Beta buying a rider to race here in MX that can run with the top riders. Without a top 5 finish would make the bike look bad. I think the CC version would be a great GNCC bike like what Whibley has. Changing an MX bike into a enduro is far easier than the other way, still not cheap.

What's the differences with Europe MX and USA MX? I'd guess with the very limited numbers I wouldn't think there's a need to buy a rider at all . I would think just producing and having available some mx bikes available could be an option. After all Beta came to the US without any riders here and really no one here knowing the brand much beyond trials. The cross country is an easy adaptation and seems to be a decent idea.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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On average Europe tracks set-ups have a different style, jumps, track size and most important the caliper of rider/commitment. Same goes for Canadian MX vs. the states. Flip side, US racers can't dominate in enduros overseas, why?? Same reason

Who would Beta get?? They would have to buy the top 7-10 racers or settle for a no-name young rising star. Then they would need a 250 and mold them hoping later the big 5 don't steal riders. First Beta would need a AMA legal bike!

Beta racers have been using the CC models already. They start with a RR then strip everything they don't need off, add better suspension, motor work and go race! If the frame was a major change, Beta would have done it accross the models for 2013 RR's. If you reinforced a tank would you feel it??? would you need it??

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What's the differences with Europe MX and USA MX? I'd guess with the very limited numbers I wouldn't think there's a need to buy a rider at all . I would think just producing and having available some mx bikes available could be an option. After all Beta came to the US without any riders here and really no one here knowing the brand much beyond trials. The cross country is an easy adaptation and seems to be a decent idea.

I think the European MX tracks are much smoother flowing and grassy than ours. The stuff they (Europeans) put the enduro guys through OTOH is flat out brutal. The discontinued annual Blackwater enduro was the only thing that came close IMO. I'm sure with a good rider aboard the Beta can be every bit as competitive in MX racing as any brand out there.

Heck, look at the KTM. That bike, even in MX trim, and linkage suspension, was not considered a worthy track bike by many. Put Dungy on it winning races and the dealers can't keep the Dungy Edition bikes in stock.

What's cool about any brand of bike is the developments that are made by these top level guys racing them. I'm willing to bet that Cody has a lot of input to the engineers that help develop these bikes that are sold to us "mortals".

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On average Europe tracks set-ups have a different style, jumps, track size and most important the caliper of rider/commitment. Same goes for Canadian MX vs. the states. Flip side, US racers can't dominate in enduros overseas, why?? Same reason

Who would Beta get?? They would have to buy the top 7-10 racers or settle for a no-name young rising star. Then they would need a 250 and mold them hoping later the big 5 don't steal riders. First Beta would need a AMA legal bike!

Beta racers have been using the CC models already. They start with a RR then strip everything they don't need off, add better suspension, motor work and go race! If the frame was a major change, Beta would have done it accross the models for 2013 RR's. If you reinforced a tank would you feel it??? would you need it??

For me I don't get the difference in MX design for a bike for europe or US. I just thought MX bikes are made the same way and maybe adjusted differently for specific tracks no matter where but I don't know . I just thought MX is MX .. I've not read or known about strategy and mechanics specificly or heard about the difference pertaining to MX . I don't even know why a pro Beta rider needed to be sponsored specificly . ..not when I haven't even heard of any cross country Beta's even coming to the US. What maybe a couple? For that matter they could just have Deny philippaerts just run one race just for exposure. To me he doesn't have to win or be close... It's just more for exposure..sales...Has anyone seen one or have vids of some cross country Beta's riding and racing in the US? I'd like to see some. Speaking of that what Beta racers have been using the CC models already? I don't know what has been reinforced on the frame.. from your reference you're saying the tank? I don't know why that part of the frame would need it or not or for what reason... Do you or anyone out there have some links to some Beta MX riders out there anywhere.. maybe not specificly MX but even part time ? I'd think it would be cool to see some vids . Any Beta enduro vids are good but for this thread the MX ones would fit just fine. I do know there was some changes in the frame from the 2010 to the 2011 but I haven't heard what was different specificly in the next 2 years..

Here's this years MX of nations.. It's a sand track which I think is kinda different compared to other MX of nations. The tracks are pretty different from country to country. In the US it's different too.. Glenn Helen is quite different than Washougal.

Here's Lakewood, Colorado.. MX of nations..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t21O7x1DmUU

I gotta get out there and go to one of these.. It looks awesome!!!

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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Here in the states what wins on Sunday sell on Monday. Sadly if a racer has a bike new to the market that doesn't do well on the standings, we (media dumb consumers) thinks its a bad bike. If Beta half harted enters MX, it can be damaging to the brand. Example the BMW 450, top enduro racer signed and quit months later. Why?? on record it was a conflict on personalities. Off record the bike didn't perform well vs. what was out there. No more BMW's, but very close in design a Husky 449/511 sells! Why because the brand wins. Shane Watts did more for KTM then the demo rides of today. He showed just how good stock bikes were but it came with a price tag to KTM. Pro riders are looking for sponsorships and they need big $$ to be competitive. So yes Beta would need to sponsor a rider and make him happy to succed. You and others on here know how good the bikes are but many new buyers only want a winning bike.

My reference to the Beta racers using the CC model was stating the fact a CC bike is a stripped down RR with better suspension. Tank was reference to the build quality of the bikes, not the gas tank. The frames are already strong and adding reinforcements is an over kill.

Lack of better words, europe MX is soft compared to the US. Money to fund a US team I bet is close to double vs. same non-factory support in europe. There's a saying, win a LL and you get a factory ride, otherwise go to Canada!

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Hey Beta's in the MX1 News in the first round of the italian mx championship coming in 11th. Cool! If I could find some vid's that would be cool!

Thanks Cam_Mitchel for letting us know..

http://moto.mpora.co...s-in-italy.html

Gianluca Martini.... He's hauling ass in this enduro vid !!

..Found him at:27 seconds....racing enduro..

I'm guessing they just got Martini to race some MX as he's here with the Boano team that is running the World Enduro Championship.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider
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The primary difference between European MX and USA MX is:

Duration: Euro motos are 30-45 min instead of 20

Track: Waaaay more sand, large corners, less prep, and NO TIMED RHYTHM sections. The spacing is random ;more than two speeds in which you can traverse them.

Team tactics: In Europe, it's more important for a team effort (be it brand or country) than an individual effort. That's why Brad Lackey was fired from Suzuki for winning the 500MX championship. Suzuki wanted a 2nd/3rd on the podium, not 1st /nothing/nothing.

Bikes: much, much softer suspension, because the tracks are so wide, they take longer to get rough, but because there is so much sand, they become brutally deep rutted.

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Here's another but this guys just cruising. If I had that 498 I'd be loving pushing that thing into the turns.. I'd love one just like this.

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The primary difference between European MX and USA MX is:

Duration: Euro motos are 30-45 min instead of 20

Track: Waaaay more sand, large corners, less prep, and NO TIMED RHYTHM sections. The spacing is random ;more than two speeds in which you can traverse them.

Team tactics: In Europe, it's more important for a team effort (be it brand or country) than an individual effort. That's why Brad Lackey was fired from Suzuki for winning the 500MX championship. Suzuki wanted a 2nd/3rd on the podium, not 1st /nothing/nothing.

Bikes: much, much softer suspension, because the tracks are so wide, they take longer to get rough, but because there is so much sand, they become brutally deep rutted.

Yea that all sounds about right..really each track is set up different for the specific track conditions anyway.. Individual tracks anywhere ..even in the same general area may be radically different by design and terrain....As far as setting up any of the Beta enduro rr's to ride mx?. I think it's just set up the suspension and go...some gearing changes too maybe... For the hard core guys of course it may not compete straight up for strictly mx.. but I'm not talking strictly mx.. and not that a Beta couldn't compete with some motor and other specific mods. I'm still talking more on the lines of having a one bike to do a variety of riding racing on. I know I can ride my Beta to a hardcore local hare n hound and the bike works excellent in the trails.. or go do the Mauna Kea 200 and be pinned at high speed on top of the mountain. and I could get stiffer springs and enter the local vet motocross and do well in my class... (if I just spent some time practicing). The bike is just good.. For slow trails the stiffer mx suspension will kill me more and my current soft suspension isn't good for mx but it is still a great compromise. Mainly I think it's setup... Everyone could go on craigslist right now and buy a cheap crf 450 for mx and a used gasgas for a trail bike for probably 6k or so and have a couple of dedicated bikes for specific riding . ..or get a couple of brand new bikes and max them out for 8 or 10k each for mx and enduro. Or... we could also just have one bike and do both with some minimal mods and have fun racing. I know I can race my Honda cr 250 in motocross and trail. It was made for MX but now works great for trail. The Beta should be fine going the other way. Anyway isn't that what Beta enduro as a product is designed for? kind of an do everything bike?

http://www.americanb...012 RS test.pdf

The older Beta still ran some fast laps on the mx track.. The newer is better.

http://www.dirtrider.com/tests/off-road-bikes/141_0904_torture_test_2009_beta_540_rx_prototype/

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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euro motos are 35-40 vs USA's 20??

Ama nationals are 30 minutes plus 2 laps 2 Moto formats. Not sure why you would say us is 20 minutes

Most of the top Europe riders who try to come over struggle with the heat, intensity, and pace of the top level us nationals.

It took Roczen and Musquin a couple of years to really get used to it over here. The tracks are normally more jumpy, technical, go for broke and tighter turns. The Europe tracks are generally faster, more sweeper type turns wide open tracks. The weather is much milder there and the Europe riders when interviewed about the transition to usa often talk about the intensity and the heat as the main differences.

think about the difference in supercross vs motocross how technical and large obstacles sx has. Kind of like the difference.

The chassis that works well for Europe is a stable bike, great for railing outside berms, smooth longer pulling power to maintain power all the way around the track.

A bike that works well here has to deal with changing directions easier and cutting tighter lines, needs a more explosive delivery to get out from the tighter corners and hit the large obstacles right out of corners.

Now I owned a 2005 tc250 husqvarna and I race b class MX. That bike out of the box was not competitive with the jap bikes. I got the bike brand new for a steal and less than 1000$ later it was competitive. I added a full exhaust, JD jetting kit, and had the suspension revalved for my ability and weight. The power was competitive it still revved a little slower but the power was really broad. It made power from bottom to top and always hooked up. The rest of the bike was great quality, great brakes and it handled very well. It didnt like tighter tracks (no surprise think euro chassis) but it Railed outside lines and I can't stress enough the traction advantage a smoother and broader powerband delivers. If the track was hard packed or muddy that bike was a huge advantage. It didnt break loose or get outta control.

If beta wanted to make a good MX bike for mortals(non pro riders) it wouldn't take much. Any modern 450 makes more power then any amateur needs. Having magazines say a new husky 450 or yz450 is "slow" is ridiculous. That snappy powerband, or huge output is all wasted on amateur riders. A broader amoother easier to use engine is what we really need atleast from a 450. A 250f is much easier to extract its potential so my '05 husky being soft it was unrideable stock. But really it didnt take anything to bring it up to par, yes out of the box it was dissapointing and magazines would tear it apart but most riders add an exhaust and other mods. Every rider should have their suspension set up for them anyway so I feel the huskys are a great option. I know this is a beta topic and all the same is true for them.

Carry on. I just saw some MX specific stuff I could add to since thats my thing im sure alot of the beta guys here are offroad focused.

If you have a beta and want to hit the track at most you need a revalve/respring and maybe play with the gearing some other than that it's all you trust me 40hp isn't holding you back on the track.

Edited by yz133rider

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euro motos are 35-40 vs USA's 20??

Ama nationals are 30 minutes plus 2 laps 2 Moto formats. Not sure why you would say us is 20 minutes

Most of the top Europe riders who try to come over struggle with the heat, intensity, and pace of the top level us nationals.

It took Roczen and Musquin a couple of years to really get used to it over here. The tracks are normally more jumpy, technical, go for broke and tighter turns. The Europe tracks are generally faster, more sweeper type turns wide open tracks. The weather is much milder there and the Europe riders when interviewed about the transition to usa often talk about the intensity and the heat as the main differences.

think about the difference in supercross vs motocross how technical and large obstacles sx has. Kind of like the difference.

The chassis that works well for Europe is a stable bike, great for railing outside berms, smooth longer pulling power to maintain power all the way around the track.

A bike that works well here has to deal with changing directions easier and cutting tighter lines, needs a more explosive delivery to get out from the tighter corners and hit the large obstacles right out of corners.

Now I owned a 2005 tc250 husqvarna and I race b class MX. That bike out of the box was not competitive with the jap bikes. I got the bike brand new for a steal and less than 1000$ later it was competitive. I added a full exhaust, JD jetting kit, and had the suspension revalved for my ability and weight. The power was competitive it still revved a little slower but the power was really broad. It made power from bottom to top and always hooked up. The rest of the bike was great quality, great brakes and it handled very well. It didnt like tighter tracks (no surprise think euro chassis) but it Railed outside lines and I can't stress enough the traction advantage a smoother and broader powerband delivers. If the track was hard packed or muddy that bike was a huge advantage. It didnt break loose or get outta control.

If beta wanted to make a good MX bike for mortals(non pro riders) it wouldn't take much. Any modern 450 makes more power then any amateur needs. Having magazines say a new husky 450 or yz450 is "slow" is ridiculous. That snappy powerband, or huge output is all wasted on amateur riders. A broader amoother easier to use engine is what we really need atleast from a 450. A 250f is much easier to extract its potential so my '05 husky being soft it was unrideable stock. But really it didnt take anything to bring it up to par, yes out of the box it was dissapointing and magazines would tear it apart but most riders add an exhaust and other mods. Every rider should have their suspension set up for them anyway so I feel the huskys are a great option. I know this is a beta topic and all the same is true for them.

Carry on. I just saw some MX specific stuff I could add to since thats my thing im sure alot of the beta guys here are offroad focused.

If you have a beta and want to hit the track at most you need a revalve/respring and maybe play with the gearing some other than that it's all you trust me 40hp isn't holding you back on the track.

I don't know.. I just think Motocross is motocross . There is some adapting from region to region and different terrain.. . There are riders like Christoph pourcel that came over here and rode very fast and won races in outdoor mx recently... juha salminen came over hear and went undefeated racing 3 hr racing offroad... and the US finally got smoked in mxdn this past year... Dean Wilson is from ireland and he's a champ... Really there's great riders everywhere. To me comparing racing in a flock of different countries and different conditions in europe is hard like it's hard to race in a bunch of different states here in the US. National pride doesn't fog my assessment of how great riders are on both sides of the atlantic. I just think it's who wins after lining up... and really it's still just an mx track and different mx tracks are different. Some smoother..some faster... some more hilly.. blah blah blah. Really when you go to your local track it's just about setting up your bike for that track so I don't think there's much of a difference at all....or at least not any difference that makes a difference for 99% of riders. We only ride and race where we are anyway. I've seen some brutal tracks in the US and some in europe.. each particular race track is different with different elements that are hard to go fast on. I agree that mainly some suspension mods for an enduro bike to race mx is mainly what's needed. Really I don't think most here are pros. The pro's will get mx specific bikes anyway.. but I'm just talking about riding what we ride for offroad and racing mx with it. That's not a big deal to me depending on your particular track setup.. If launching some serious jumps and suspension is super soft.. There's not way.. but if you are running a little stiffer suspension and the track is a bit forgiving I think an enduro bike is good. It's easy to see when watching some World enduro championship racing that those guys are hitting some sky on enduro bikes.

...I love those Maxxis girls...

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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I think Beta would have to make some geometry changes to their frames. I don't know what those are, just what I feel. I am sure my lack of talent technique and skill come into play here, or do they just magnify that there really is a difference in the overall geometry? My Beta feels a magnitude better on the trails and the woods in the same way my 2008 Honda 4-sroke 250 feels on the track. My honda is so much easier to lay over and even though it severly lacks power to my Beta 250 smoker, it feels a lot faster on the track. It also jumps so much easier and is much better in the air and floats over the whoops in a way my Beat with me on board just can't. I am sure the Beta motor is not an issue at all. Maybe someone more knowledgable than me knows what those geometry issues are. That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that Beta could produce such a bike.

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I think Beta would have to make some geometry changes to their frames. I don't know what those are, just what I feel. I am sure my lack of talent technique and skill come into play here, or do they just magnify that there really is a difference in the overall geometry? My Beta feels a magnitude better on the trails and the woods in the same way my 2008 Honda 4-sroke 250 feels on the track. My honda is so much easier to lay over and even though it severly lacks power to my Beta 250 smoker, it feels a lot faster on the track. It also jumps so much easier and is much better in the air and floats over the whoops in a way my Beat with me on board just can't. I am sure the Beta motor is not an issue at all. Maybe someone more knowledgable than me knows what those geometry issues are. That being said, there is no doubt in my mind that Beta could produce such a bike.

I wonder how you might feel riding a Beta 350 rr on the track for comparison. 4 and 2 stroke are different for setup and riding.. Beta did say that they changed the geometry for the 2 stroke from the original 4 stroke design.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider

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