Whip confusion

[astronutski]

Just got back into dirt bikes after a 30 year hiatus (damnit), and just this year learned how to jump the MX jumps (biggest at the track I go to is 55', which I overjump often). And now I'm just learning how to whip.

I have a couple of questions for you studs:

1) I'm getting very good lean on the face, but my results are very inconsistent. Sometimes it goes out really nice but doesn't come back, sometimes it doesn't go out, but does come back, both of those mean I land sideways (haven't crashed yet), and other times it works very well. What's the advice here, just a lot more practice?

I've only been attempting whips the last two times I went to the track. And I'm doing them on the 55' and immediately after that the 50', both tabletops.

Here's a pic where I went out nicely but it wouldn't come back. Am I supposed to be pulling it back with my outer leg? Should I have hit the handlebar stop thing hard to twist the bike back? Is my body in the wrong position here?

http://mitchellsportsphotography.com/MX/uh-oh8-29-12.jpg

And here's learning to whip,

And learning to whip

I feel there is mega progress, but obviously I still have a very long road ahead. I know nothing beats seat time, but does anyone have any suggestions?

(please be nice, I'm 46 and acting 15 LOL) But having the time of my life. Before June of this year I never jumped anything even 20', so I think I've made a ton of progress this year eh?

Any advice will be appreciated. I don't have a whole lot of years left at this, and really want to get good at whipping. (Tip to the youngsters... don't ever take a 30 year hiatus, you'll regret it) Thank God my 15 year old son desperately begged for a dirt bike, and then after I got him one I had to get one, otherwise I likely still wouldn't have a dirt bike. Too fun, just can't get enough.

Thanks for your time.

[Yellowbanana]

Cool man looks like a lot of fun!

[kx910]

I WANNA RIDEEEEEE!

[tye1138]

Well, welcome back!

I feel your pain about riding at an older age. I didn't start until I was 31 so, I missed all my childhood years, which sucks.

Anyway to your question and conundrum!

I'm not great at whips, I'm much better at scrubbing then at whipping. But I think scrubbing is the first thing you need to learn before you can feel comfortable whipping.

The whole thing is exactly what your doing, lean off the jump face, look where you wanna go, point the front wheel where you wanna go. The key is to throttle off the face, you need that extra boost to push the rear end sideways. I'm not sure how a non-motocross bike will respond to this, it might not unload in the same fashion and not give you the boost you need to kick the back out a lot, maybe thats why your struggling a bit.

You do look "stiff" in the air, so thats something you should think about as well, perhaps loosening up a bit would help.

Edited August 30, 2012 by tye1138

[Blutarsky]

Watch this vid frame by frame...starting at 1:04.

Right when the time changes to 1:05..RC is well up the face. The rear suspension is nearly on the bump stop. Yet he has not really made an aggressive lean yet. At about 1:05.5...he aggresively moves to the side...right before the rear starts to rebound. It is not just about leaning...it is about leaning so that your CG is to the side of the rebound force....so timing is important. If you lean your body and the bike before compression..and just hold it there...it will not work the same. In fact....you see pros take jumps leaned over all the time...and not whip at all...because their body is in line with the rebound force direction. Bottom out your suspension travel / load it...THEN lean. I tried it for the 1st time yesterday...it works...I really scared myself!

Do some more vids from the angle RC used...then people can see what you are doing on the jump face...and when you are timing your lean.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Blutarsky

[temporarily_locked]

whipping is initiated on the face, next time you are at the track get video looking at the jump where you can see the whole face in the picture.

Before you start trying to throw bigger whips, you need to learn how to control and correct the bike better. Step back from trying to throw it out further, and practice making sure you have complete control where your at. For initiating the whip, how much you whip is controlled by how much your turning on the face, how you weight your pegs, and how much you can get your bodies center off mass rotating around the bikes center of mass. Bringing it back is mostly how you turn the front wheel, weight the pegs, apply throttle and position your weight.

Unfortunately just leaning the bike on the face won't make you whip. You can get the back end to kick out, but it isn't the same. When you whip you will be able to feel the bike want to return to a strait position and sometimes even have to resist its return to prevent over correcting.

You look like your at the stage of weighting your pegs unevenly and maybe leaning a little bit to the inside. Judging by the inconsistency of the direction your whipping, your probably not paying attention to which peg your weighting. Next time you practice whipping that should be the first thing your experiment with and figure out.

With whipping, what ever your do to initiate it, do the opposite to bring it back. For instance, if your trying to whip the same direction as in your video, you would weight your left peg and lean to the left on the face. One in the air you would weight your right peg and steer to the right to bring it back. When you whip to the point that it goes out and comes back on it's own, the feeling is indescribable even on small whips.

Once you get consistency and bringing it back sorted out ill talk about turning/moving body weight on the face to whip it out more.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Die_trying

[astronutski]

Thank you Tye! Well, I can guarantee you this a motocross bike. Yes, it has a headlight, taillight, kickstand, e-start, battery (I think that's it), but it's the exact same engine and suspension as the 250R. Oh, the gearing is wide vs. the narrow MX gearing. But that's fairly irrelevent fo rmy dilemma :-)

OK, yes, I believe I am stiff. I just need to know, "ok, lean off the bike to the left more...." stuff like that. I've studied a lot on YT naturally. And the guys that whip at that track are far too busy blazing around to stop and teach me how to whip LOL.

So anyway, I believe it's compressing and unloading propertly, although I know I need to be further left to have it spring out away from me to the right. But that's skerry when at times it won't come back. And to be completely honest, if I understand scrubs there is no way I'm ready for those! That's like the bike horizontal right? No thanks. Unless I'm misunderstanding the difference.

But back to the videos... you can see how sometimes it goes well, although not a huge whip.... and sometimes it goes out and stays out... and sometimes it doesn't go out, but "comes back" the other way and I end up sideways the other way. I know more seat time will definitely help. I guess I was hoping for a "oh, you just need to correct this..." and I'd be golden LOL. I guess I just need to know that when revving doesn't bring it back do you (in my case) pull the right leg against the bike to nudge it back, or turn the bars all the way to the rightand then some.... which might swing the back end back? Or is it all completely by the throttle? I'm kinda thinking it's more "user input" than I'm currently doing.

Any ideas?

But damn this is F-U-N!!!!

Here's a few more photos:

http://www.mitchellsportsphotography.com/MX/bigwhip8-29-12.jpg

http://www.mitchellsportsphotography.com/MX/Lean-baby.jpg (Here's how I typically come off the face)

http://www.mitchellsportsphotography.com/MX/Lean-baby2.jpg (and here)

http://www.mitchellsportsphotography.com/MX/rearward%207-13-12.jpg (here's a bonus pic, I like this view)

[astronutski]

Thanks Blu and Die, I'll definitely study what you guys both said. Thanks for the extreme detail, and I agree, I do need to be more in control before I start going horizontal LOL.

I know I'm close. I can feel what you were talking about how it wants to come back. That happens maybe 50% of the time... so I'm getting there. And I completely agree, I need to be off to the left when it unloads, that's what I was thinking, it just makes sense. I love breaking this stuff down so it makes sense.... some people just say Get out there at do it.... but I need to understand it first you know?

So, thank you guys, I'll definitely study RC, and work on paying attention to leaning at the right time and working my weight around and peg loading... great stuff there.

Lots and lots of practice ahead of me, and I'm fine with that!!!

[tye1138]

Thank you Tye! Well, I can guarantee you this a motocross bike. Yes, it has a headlight, taillight, kickstand, e-start, battery (I think that's it), but it's the exact same engine and suspension as the 250R. Oh, the gearing is wide vs. the narrow MX gearing. But that's fairly irrelevent fo rmy dilemma :-)

Not to get into a lengthy day long discussion, but the X is an off-road bike. It has off-road plush suspension (which you can see clearly in your videos) and most likely you aren't running motocross sag (35mm static 105mm rider). The motor is also different, totally different cam profile, less compression and different gearbox plus an emissions legal exhaust. Trust me, its an off-road bike and they are very difficult to tune properly for motocross. That does't mean you can't whip on it, that just means it might not do the same thing our whip experts assume it will do.

The loading up of the rear end which has stiffness that rebounds quickly, is a key to starting a whip. Without that stiffness in the back, you'll most likely not get the rebound necessary to make it whip without putting a lot more energy into it. My concern is you're trying hard and not getting anywhere, which makes me believe there is something else amiss...

OK, yes, I believe I am stiff. I just need to know, "ok, lean off the bike to the left more...." stuff like that. I've studied a lot on YT naturally. And the guys that whip at that track are far too busy blazing around to stop and teach me how to whip LOL.

Its not as easy as the guys above and Ricky make it out to be. You will notice in Ricky's video he is constantly in motion with his body, there isn't a moment where he's just frozen. So I believe being more loose is actually the first thing you should work on. It takes an understanding of what a bike does in flight to really get down how to adjust that flight, which is the second phase. A lot of people try to do things in the air, like take their hand off the bar and kick their foot out. Just something to keep them busy in the air. I highly suggest trying something like that to start with to help you get loose.

As an example, in the mornings when I first get on the track, I'm super tight. Takes about an hour of riding for me to get loose enough to really let the back come around. That looseness is key to being able to do anything but lil vet whips, like you've shown in the videos.

[Dirt Addict]

I have an aquaintance who writes for dirt rider mag. he regularly tests all the new bikes. He owns a 07 crf250x and says it's his favorite bike for zaca station. He tears it up at piru too. I have video of him doing some good scrubs on it somewhere...

[LSeca]

I have an aquaintance who writes for dirt rider mag. he regularly tests all the new bikes. He owns a 07 crf250x and says it's his favorite bike for zaca station. He tears it up at piru too. I have video of him doing some good scrubs on it somewhere...

Good call, if someone is comfortable on a particular bike, then it really doesnt matter what it is. I have seen guys on quads do decent whips even.

[Yellowbanana]

I have seen guys on quads do decent whips even.

Blasphemy

[tye1138]

I have an aquaintance who writes for dirt rider mag. he regularly tests all the new bikes. He owns a 07 crf250x and says it's his favorite bike for zaca station. He tears it up at piru too. I have video of him doing some good scrubs on it somewhere...

Sure, and I see 30 year olds ride big wheel 85's throwing whips everywhere, making guys on 250F's look like chumps.

If you know how to ride, it doesn't make a difference what you ride.

When you come on the forums and have a problem thats specifically related to motocross and you're clearly riding an off-road bike, the formula's we have wrapped up in our heads as the "answer" might not work perfectly in practice on the off-road bike. In this case, it might take a bit more effort to load up the rear end enough, for it to rebound enough and give the same result, we don't have to do anything special to achieve. Thats ALL I'm saying, its really just a simple comment related to tracking down why the OP isn't getting much boost. It could be 100 different things, but I always look at the bike because usually most people DON'T look at the bike. When I see the bike riding in the video, I see a soft suspended machine on a dusty track and a stiff rider. I pointed all three of those things out... if you can do better, be my guest, but to shoot down everything I say because "I know a guy who can ride a (insert bike here) and throw a killer whip" what kind of response is that?

Good call, if someone is comfortable on a particular bike, then it really doesnt matter what it is. I have seen guys on quads do decent whips even.

Correct, and the OP is clearly not comfortable on his bike, which is why he's stiff. Again, coming down to a "bike" and comfortability issue, which is what I pointed out.

[condor74]

Nothing wrong with a 250X. Perfect bike for what you are doing. It is not a motocross bike but it can do motocross. It doesnt take much to get that motor real close to the R motor. I also have an X and I am running an R exhaust, R cam, Cut air box, cut pink wire and rejetted for the changes. It will never be as snappy as an R due to the weight of the flywheel and crankshaft. In absolute horse power, it is pretty close. It is a bit heavier but for offroad/moto for fun riding it is just fine. Keep working at it. Practicing. Those are about the most perfect jumps I have seen to learn on. There is a lot of good advice here but most of all just keep working at it. This is me practicing wips on my 250X a few years ago.

[tye1138]

Its kinda funny, everyone things that "whipping" is so important, yet most people suck in corners, which is where all the fun and speed is. :shrug:

[astronutski]

Lots to comment on here wow:

Thanks guys, Hey, keep it coming I'll take any advice offered, the best way to learn. Tye, I agree with you, and I must correct myself. I forgot about hte different cam and exhaust and thanks for correcting me regarding suspension. Which reminds me, I was thinking about stiffening it up anyway. Yes, I run the 105mm sag, I can't remember what the free sag is, but I have it written in my namual, which is way over there? and set it up as recommended everywhere, and it fell within the limits of "normal" (plus I keep losing weight, which feels great).

I have lower back issues, and get steroid injections and RFA's every couple of months, so I do have it a bit soft intentionally. I am/was a trail rider and only this year (June) started on the MX track for the very first time. The jumps terrified me but I found a way to click off that part of the brain temporarily, and in June started with a 20' jump. Next time I went to the 45' and the next time I went to the 55', and the next time I was able to do the two in a row, the 55' and the 50'. So, this is why yes, I look a bit stiff and "clearly not comfortable" on the bike. It's not the bike LOL. There still is the learning fear about "wait, I'm 46, married with two awesome kids, &%$#@! am I doing?!". But I have put a lot into this bike and whip it (not those whips we're talking about here LOL) around the trails like nothing. So, the stiffness which comes across as me uncomfortable on this bike, I can assure you is simply beginners freeze due to the jump, as I practically live on the bike, just not at the track.

And just in listening to you guys I have learned a major thing, that you do NOT stay frozen up there. It is very active, that's what I was missing. And the leg does pull it back (if necessary, I do understand centrifugal force). I dig breaking it down like this, this is how I learn better/faster/stronger.

I too have cut the air box, cut pink wire, rejetted, and a nice No-Toil air filter. Not interested in doing a lot of engine work, Next year plan to get a 450R. IIRC, the 450R is 7 lbs. lighter than the 250X, so yes, mine is heavier. Oh, and I have NO DESIRE at this point to whip like the RC video, LOL! Baby steps... just baby steps...

Maybe with me being new to jumps it's "too soon" to be worrying about whips, but I have to constantly push myself, not satisfied with status-quo, always looking to improve. I feel the 55' is no challenge, although still get the butterflies a little, I've done it so many times jumping it regular are borderline boring. I love the feeling of airtime, who doesn't? So this is still BY FAR the most funnest part of the track, and since I have no desire to race, I'm more than fine just jumping.

Anyway, I think I'll stiffen the compression two clicks and maybe the rebound also and see how that feels. That and a lot more practice, and looseness should work wonders.

And Die, you're absolutely right, I am not paying attention at all to weighting the pegs... I'm just trying to work on "carving" up the face and not miss the landing ramp LOL! I am having to point it at the rightmost corner of the landing ramp and often come back to center or just a tad left of center on the landing. Which works just great for me for now, until I can get consistency. As said before, although not new at all to dirt bikes, I'm still brand new to the MX track and jumping, so just being able to land 55' without needing the 1/4 mile straight line leadup I needed in the beginning (in June) I feel great LOL!!!!

A lot of great suggestions here, and I certainly am above starting or contributing to a flame war, I'm seriously looking for constructive criticism to help me advance without breaking anything. Which in turn makes it all incredibly fun, and that's what it's all about anyway. ?

These jumps are just too damn fun. I ignore all other apects of the 1.5 mile long track, and just loop around these two jumps whenever I go LOL.

Have a great holiday guys!

[MotoNatz88]

Its kinda funny, everyone things that "whipping" is so important, yet most people suck in corners, which is where all the fun and speed is. :shrug:

I couldn't agree more! If you want to get faster and really show some speed focus on cornering speed.

[astronutski]

I couldn't agree more! If you want to get faster and really show some speed focus on cornering speed.

LOL, I never said it was the fastest, nor do I want to go the fastest, or even fastER, or even complete one lap! I'm just having a blast and want to whip! That to me is fun. I couldn't care less about going faster around the track, shit, shoot, I don't even ride around the track! I do these two jumps, bang, bang, then turn around and loop back and do them over again! Two hours straight! (Well, breaks for arm-pump, but that's another topic).

To each their own eh?

It's like when you first start dating.. LOL.... the movie and dinner is just "filler" if you know what I mean.? I go straight for the main event, over and over! LOL

[MotoNatz88]

Haha I love the movie and dinner analogy. Well that's good man keep up the good work. I am pretty much doing the same you are right now as far as size of the whip. I just can't seem to put that much focus on it.

[MRBORG69]

Its kinda funny, everyone things that "whipping" is so important, yet most people suck in corners, which is where all the fun and speed is. :shrug:

too true ? Edited August 31, 2012 by MRBORG69