W85W58

2012 WR450 Starting woes

509 posts in this topic

Seems to me my darn starter just doesn't spin fast enough to crank the motor over, almost feels like with a little more power it would fire right up. Tried multiple batteries. Its weird because the kick start always works first try even when the bikes in gear.

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Seems to me my darn starter just doesn't spin fast enough to crank the motor over, almost feels like with a little more power it would fire right up. Tried multiple batteries. Its weird because the kick start always works first try even when the bikes in gear.

 

A Shorai battery will spin it a bit faster and shave some weight, but it's not a fix on it's own. Not sure why they kick hot ok but won't with the e-start, mine was the same way. *shrug*

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The FI tool is great and you'll definitely be happier with a new map. But that won't solve the hot start issue, the idle mix is what affects that, and the FI tool cannot adjust the idle circuit, only the dealer's tool (or aftermarket version, there is one available for rent on this very forum from a member) can do that. That is the key to curing the hot starting woes.

 

The FI tool can adjust the idle though, and you definitely don't want it too low. I run mine on the high side of the normal range, 2100 rpm.

 

I agree, the #1 issue is with the idle mix set too low. But I would submit that other issues are at play. It seems to me that if your bike is hot and won't start, and you pull the "choke" and it starts fine, that indicate a lean idle setting. If it won't start with the button, but kick starts fine, I suggest the battery is not providing enough juice for a hot spark. I realize this may be over simplifying it, but I like simple.

 

I also remember reading someone's post about how the power tuner may not be able to adjust idle mix, but it can have an effect below 3000 rpm. I wonder if there is anyone that has a sniffer that can verify this. Create a baseline idle reading and then change the fuel settings at the lowest point and re-check with the sniffer. Would make tuning these bikes easier.

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I agree, the #1 issue is with the idle mix set too low. But I would submit that other issues are at play. It seems to me that if your bike is hot and won't start, and you pull the "choke" and it starts fine, that indicate a lean idle setting. If it won't start with the button, but kick starts fine, I suggest the battery is not providing enough juice for a hot spark. I realize this may be over simplifying it, but I like simple.

 

I also remember reading someone's post about how the power tuner may not be able to adjust idle mix, but it can have an effect below 3000 rpm. I wonder if there is anyone that has a sniffer that can verify this. Create a baseline idle reading and then change the fuel settings at the lowest point and re-check with the sniffer. Would make tuning these bikes easier.

 

The bike is definitely too lean stock. And pulling the 'choke' just bumps the idle speed a bit. I cannot explain why it will kick just fine when the e-start won't cut it. I put a Shorai in mine and it helped a little, but adjusting the idle CO level was the cure.

 

The GYTR FI tuner doesn't affect anything below 4000 RPM. I agree some sniffer analysis could go a long way towards figuring out the 'why' part of it.

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I am also interested why the Power Tuner cannot/does not access the ECU's idle settings and the FI tool does. Obviously there is code written into these tuners that only allows it to read and write to certain sections of the ECU. I wonder if that can be "hacked". 

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I'm still waiting for someone to take me up on my offer of a free "rental" of my FI Diagnostic tool, in exchange for the data they would provide from their gas sniffer.

 

It would help answer questions like this.

 

So far, no one has accepted my offer.

 

See thread:

http://www.thumpertalk.com/topic/1095724-12-wr450-fi-setting-vs-co-gas-sniffer-readings-data-request/

 

 

PM me if you have a sniffer and willing to gather the data...

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I am also interested why the Power Tuner cannot/does not access the ECU's idle settings and the FI tool does. Obviously there is code written into these tuners that only allows it to read and write to certain sections of the ECU. I wonder if that can be "hacked". 

http://ecuhacking.activeboard.com/t37228510/yamahamoric-single-cylinder-ecus-yzf-r125-in-mind/  Those guys could probably do it.  Way too complicated for me.

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I have changed my co to 10 and bike has been really good to start and some times not so good. 2 things that I have learned is that when the bike don't want to start I will hold the throttle wide open and crank over a couple revolutions. Close throttle and crank, starts every time. This is interesting because that would tell me the no start is due to rich and not lean. I also have learned that the bike responds to sort stabs of the starter and not long cranks. Last is that I recently switched to the fmf map and that has made my starting harder especially cold, it's not terrible but just not as good.

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I am thinking a wideband meter like the one made by Innovate Motosports might be the way to go. It's more expensive ($349), but you could monitor your A/F ratio all the way to redline and dial it in perfectly. Anyone else consider this?

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You might want to consider the power commander with autotune.  The gytr power tuner only has 9 load cells.  Might be hard to dial it in perfectly.

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IS anyone here willing to let m borrow their FI tool? I just bought a 2014 wr450f and am having the same lean condition problems. My dealer lied to me when I bought it and said they would order the part and fix it for me....1 month later I get a call from the parts guy who told me that he wasn't allowed to order the part. I am so frustrated right now, I paid $9000 for a paper weight sitting in my garage and the worst part is I traded my other 2 bikes for this POS. I just want my bike to start easy and not make the pipe glow cherry red after 1 min if idling.

 

I've got the FMF slip on, power tuner, performance ECU a new trail tech computer and sadly, I can't put anything on until I fix this stupid lean problem. I'd really rather not pay $200 for a tool I will only use once. I'm happy to leave a deposit via paypal or whatever and even pay the person a small fee for letting me use the tool.

 

Please PM me if you can help.

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cracker please, on 07 Oct 2014 - 2:14 PM, said:cracker please, on 07 Oct 2014 - 2:14 PM, said:

You might want to consider the power commander with autotune.  The gytr power tuner only has 9 load cells.  Might be hard to dial it in perfectly.

People need to wake up and use the Power Commander and stop messing with the GYTR rip-off!!

Edited by tomerb

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People need to wake up and use the Power Commander and stop messing with the GYTR rip-off!!

Yes and No. The PC is more useful for someone that has the means to tune with it. And if you use the auto tune there is just the one map that it builds. You can't change the power delivery as easily. This does not even address the timing adjustments that the auto tune does not change. So yes you have a hundreds of cells to adjust both fuel and timing and can fine tune it for the condition or state that it's in. But as I stated before you need to have the means to do that. As well as a laptop to carry around. There are only three or four PC maps for the WR to try.

Now for the GYTR programmer you only have nine cells to look at. Now, it's almost like jetting a carburetor. It's quick it's easy and you can take the programmer with you. Example :On a real hot day it's easy to knock down the timing a little. Anyone with a butt dyno and common sense can use it. There are lots of maps to try for the GYTR.

 I do own and program for the Power Commander the MSD Blaster FI and the GYTR. All have their right places.

Edited by vlxjim

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Just curious.. is the CO setting stored in the ECU or is it somewhere else in the system?

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Just curious.. is the CO setting stored in the ECU or is it somewhere else in the system?

Its in the ECU.

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Yes and No. The PC is more useful for someone that has the means to tune with it. And if you use the auto tune there is just the one map that it builds. You can't change the power delivery as easily. This does not even address the timing adjustments that the auto tune does not change. So yes you have a hundreds of cells to adjust both fuel and timing and can fine tune it for the condition or state that it's in. But as I stated before you need to have the means to do that. As well as a laptop to carry around. There are only three or four PC maps for the WR to try.

Now for the GYTR programmer you only have nine cells to look at. Now, it's almost like jetting a carburetor. It's quick it's easy and you can take the programmer with you. Example :On a real hot day it's easy to knock down the timing a little. Anyone with a butt dyno and common sense can use it. There are lots of maps to try for the GYTR.

 I do own and program for the Power Commander the MSD Blaster FI and the GYTR. All have their right places.

 

This is exactly the kind of information I am looking for.  vlxjim, since you have all the toys for these bikes, which one do you use the most? Which one is the "fallback" device that you use all the time? And lastly, if you could only buy 1, which one would it be?

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Well for street bikes the Power Comander (PC) and a dyno is the way to go to for me. The MSD Blaster FI I like for the quads. It can save 9 maps in it. I run 3+ a stock by pass map for trouble shooting. It has a very good interface and a solid install, But the PC+timimg works good to. For the WR or YZ the GYTR gets me what I need. There is no need for the PC in my case and for most riders out there. The 450's just take what you give or don't give them. You don't need to tune every 250 RPM's. Its not like a fine tuned road bike. There are other fuel-timing controllers out there, I've tried a few I just know and like these. So there is no 1 go to solution. The WR has a great way to tune and its part of the bikes system. The others are just add on fuel controllers that intercept and change the signal from the stock ECU. There not an ECU replacement. This means more wires more connection and the controller that can go wrong.

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Well for street bikes the Power Comander (PC) and a dyno is the way to go to for me. The MSD Blaster FI I like for the quads. It can save 9 maps in it. I run 3+ a stock by pass map for trouble shooting. It has a very good interface and a solid install, But the PC+timimg works good to. For the WR or YZ the GYTR gets me what I need. There is no need for the PC in my case and for most riders out there. The 450's just take what you give or don't give them. You don't need to tune every 250 RPM's. Its not like a fine tuned road bike. There are other fuel-timing controllers out there, I've tried a few I just know and like these. So there is no 1 go to solution. The WR has a great way to tune and its part of the bikes system. The others are just add on fuel controllers that intercept and change the signal from the stock ECU. There not an ECU replacement. This means more wires more connection and the controller that can go wrong.

 

Thanks for the info.  It's great to have someone who has used/tried multiple products. I have the GYTR tuner and would like to use an FI diag tool just to set the CO. Hard to justify buying that piece for 1 use.  I am wondering how the memory map is laid down in the ECU and what makes the Power Tuner only talk to a certain section vs how the FI diag tool only talks to another section.

 

If I could just get the Power Tuner to speak to the idle area of the ECU....

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