W85W58

2012 WR450 Starting woes

509 posts in this topic

I'm on the verge of bringing my bike to the dealer, but before I do that I wanted to see if I'm missing something.

My bike has a stock exhaust with the peashooter removed, competition ecu, fmf exhuast map programmed into the ecu.

I have about 180 miles on the bike, which has been nearly all trail action.

I checked the intake valves and they're not even close to being out of spec.

Here's the issue...

When the bike is cold and in nuetral, I pull the starter knob and it will start on the second try everytime. If I put the bike in gear, I can't get it started. When cold, that's not a big deal though.

On the trails, I have trouble restarting after stopping. Which is a big deal, IMHO. The bike will not start when in gear, which is extremely inconvenient. When the bike is hot, I have to pull the starter knob again, find neutral and start. Sometimes it starts right away, but usually it starts after 4 or 5 tries. Usually.

Here's the interesting part. I can kick start the bike pretty easily when hot and in gear or not. Why is that????

My battery is nearly new and has been on a trickle charger.

I spent 4 days on the trails at Hatfield-McCoy and the bike is quite frankly a pain in the a$$ because it doesn't start easily with the button. If I'm on the side of a hill wrestling with my bike, the last thing I want to do is reach down to find the starter knob and then on top of that find the ever elusive nuetral in the gearbox...

It seems like a silly issue... Yamaha wouldn't build a bike that was a hard starter, would they????

Your opinions, and help are appreciated.

Thanks,

Jon

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I'm on the verge of bringing my bike to the dealer, but before I do that I wanted to see if I'm missing something.

My bike has a stock exhaust with the peashooter removed, competition ecu, fmf exhuast map programmed into the ecu.

I have about 180 miles on the bike, which has been nearly all trail action.

I checked the intake valves and they're not even close to being out of spec.

Here's the issue...

When the bike is cold and in nuetral, I pull the starter knob and it will start on the second try everytime. If I put the bike in gear, I can't get it started. When cold, that's not a big deal though.

On the trails, I have trouble restarting after stopping. Which is a big deal, IMHO. The bike will not start when in gear, which is extremely inconvenient. When the bike is hot, I have to pull the starter knob again, find neutral and start. Sometimes it starts right away, but usually it starts after 4 or 5 tries. Usually.

Here's the interesting part. I can kick start the bike pretty easily when hot and in gear or not. Why is that????

My battery is nearly new and has been on a trickle charger.

I spent 4 days on the trails at Hatfield-McCoy and the bike is quite frankly a pain in the a$$ because it doesn't start easily with the button. If I'm on the side of a hill wrestling with my bike, the last thing I want to do is reach down to find the starter knob and then on top of that find the ever elusive nuetral in the gearbox...

It seems like a silly issue... Yamaha wouldn't build a bike that was a hard starter, would they????

Your opinions, and help are appreciated.

Thanks,

Jon

I posted a fix for this in another thread. But Simple fact is the bikes are too rich on the idle circuit. I took mine to my dealer and stuck a sniffer in the exhaust and reset the idle circut using the factory yamaha FI management tool. This is not the power programer. My bike now starts first or second push of the button in gear and at any elevation weather hot or cold. Hope this helps.

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When in gear, there is just enough drag thru the clutch to make starting a very "ify" proposition. Usually, a kick start puts enough, quick spin into the engine to get it to fire, but not always. But that's the reason I believe they start easier with a kick, as opposed to the button. Perhaps one of those new Lithium Ion batteries would put a quicker, stronger spin to the engine?

Maniac

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Try cracking the throttle a little when trying to start after its warmed up. Mine starts on first try about 90% of the time in or out of gear when warm. I have a Rekluse Z Start Pro but don't know if the clutch makes a difference or not when starting in gear, mine starts in gear same as in neutral. The knob on the TB is for cold start only.

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I have somewhat the same problem. I have the competition kit and GYTR tuner and GYTR exhaust on mine. It will start perfect every time for the first time but after its hot it has a harder time. I noticed that if my filter is extremely dirty it has a way hard time. I think what the guy said earlier about the Idle fuel level is off and taking it to the dealership is the way to go. I am going to do that this week. Good post. Thanks

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I posted a fix for this in another thread. But Simple fact is the bikes are too rich on the idle circuit. I took mine to my dealer and stuck a sniffer in the exhaust and reset the idle circut using the factory yamaha FI management tool. This is not the power programer. My bike now starts first or second push of the button in gear and at any elevation weather hot or cold. Hope this helps.

Clearly not the problem for this post. If the bike starts with the cold start button when hot, the idle is too lean, not too rich. Mine is the same. I installed a Shorai lithium battery and that made no difference. At some point I will get back to the dealer for an idle mixture adjustment. It seems absurd to have an FI system that is neither user adjustable or able to self adjust.

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"It seems absurd to have an FI system that is neither user adjustable or able to self adjust"

Don't blame Yamaha its the EPA and the California Air Research Board that's the problem.

Mine starts fine with the GYTR ECM and the FMF map

I road 55 miles on Tuesday stopping to explore many times and only had to push the start button twice one time to get it started. And I agree that there lean when stock not rich!!

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Update on my bike...

Took it to the dealer a few days ago. They initially said the idle was set too low. They set it at 2000 and called me to say everything was working great. It started cold, hot and everywhere in between. I was skeptical, but went over hoping the bike was fixed. I spoke to the service manager for a few minutes and he theorized what was going on. We walked over to the bike and he started it cold on the second try. Nothing new there. We chatted for a few minutes while the bike ran and eventually got hot enough that we were both satisfied that the next start would indeed be a hot one. He shut it off. Without the start knob pulled, he attempted to start it. It was like a flashback a few weeks ago when I was trying to start the bike and my buddies were blasting ahead of me on the trails. It wouldn't fire. I counted 7 tries. He finally did what I had been doing all along, pulled the starter knob and it fired up.

I then restated what I had been saying all along. A fuel injected bike should not be having this trouble... especially a new one. He agreed and called the Yamaha technical representative. The rep said that he's received a lot of calls about this issue. According to him, the problems disappear once the bike has had time to break in. I asked the dealer what his definition of break-in was and he said 600 miles.

I don't know. I may try another dealer and see if I get a similar response. I was hoping that this dealership had already run into this issue and I wasn't the first guy with a bike like this to walk in the door. Apparently, I was.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

Jon

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Update on my bike...

Took it to the dealer a few days ago. They initially said the idle was set too low. They set it at 2000 and called me to say everything was working great. It started cold, hot and everywhere in between. I was skeptical, but went over hoping the bike was fixed. I spoke to the service manager for a few minutes and he theorized what was going on. We walked over to the bike and he started it cold on the second try. Nothing new there. We chatted for a few minutes while the bike ran and eventually got hot enough that we were both satisfied that the next start would indeed be a hot one. He shut it off. Without the start knob pulled, he attempted to start it. It was like a flashback a few weeks ago when I was trying to start the bike and my buddies were blasting ahead of me on the trails. It wouldn't fire. I counted 7 tries. He finally did what I had been doing all along, pulled the starter knob and it fired up.

I then restated what I had been saying all along. A fuel injected bike should not be having this trouble... especially a new one. He agreed and called the Yamaha technical representative. The rep said that he's received a lot of calls about this issue. According to him, the problems disappear once the bike has had time to break in. I asked the dealer what his definition of break-in was and he said 600 miles.

I don't know. I may try another dealer and see if I get a similar response. I was hoping that this dealership had already run into this issue and I wasn't the first guy with a bike like this to walk in the door. Apparently, I was.

Suggestions? Thoughts?

Jon

Exactly like mine. I have the comp ECU, FMF map etc etc. Have only done 300km so far but am not happy. Hopefully things will improve with more mileage. It is plausible that break in time will improve starting as the rings seal better giving improved compression at low rpm. Not good enough though Yamaha. On my 2008 I would have just given the idle mixture adjustment screw a half turn richer and it would have been fixed.

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Like i have been saying have the dealer tune the idle circuit using the yamaha FI management tool and the adapter for the wr. They will need to stick a sniffer down the exhaust to set it correctly. Mine was rich. Others may be lean. As soon as this was done on my bike. I crack the throttle and it fires up every time.

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Like i have been saying have the dealer tune the idle circuit using the yamaha FI management tool and the adapter for the wr. They will need to stick a sniffer down the exhaust to set it correctly. Mine was rich. Others may be lean. As soon as this was done on my bike. I crack the throttle and it fires up every time.

You are quite right, I should just take it in and have it checked and adjusted. It is just a pain in the a** to have to take my bike back to the dealer for something that should be user adjustable in the first place.

I accept that the stock ecu needs to be lean for EPA requirements but why the comp ecu?

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My bike was checked and it was lean. I've been running 20/50 in the summer here in UT because of hot temps even at altitude. Last weekend it started to cool off in the morning. We get a really early start to avoid the heat and crowds. Saturday I was at 7300' to start and it was about 50 degrees, the motor was probably colder because of the drive up. Sunday I was at 6200' to start and it was about 55 degrees. Well my bike would not kick start with the button pulled and it took a long time to get it started both days. Went to my dealer on Monday and had a real good conversation with service manager. About half way threw it he asks me what kind of oil are you running, I said 20/50 and he says there's your problem, and told me to run 0/40 synthetic, then told me all the reasons why. In short, no matter what the manuel says don't run 20/50 because it's too thick for this bike. I never had problem in my YZ's running 20/50, but the longer I own this thing, the more I realize it's nothing like the YZ.

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Update on my bike.

I talked to the service manager about adjusting the idle circuit with the FI management tool. I also gave him the part number of the tool as printed in the owner's manual on page 9-26 (Yamaha diagnostic tool 90890-03125.)

He didn't have the tool onhand, so he tried to get it. Apparently, the supplier (K&L supply) said they won't be able to get any to dealers (wholesale supplier only) until December at the earliest. According to th service manager, the company had a software glitch in a previous version.

So... I need a part number other than the one listed, that allows adjustment of the idle circuit. Do any of you have one?????

I also mentioned the possibility of using an "older" FI management tool. He had one made for the Raptor and tried it. It would give diagnostic information, but there wasn't an ability for any adjustment.

Hope someone out there can help.

Thanks,

Jon

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Update on my bike.

I talked to the service manager about adjusting the idle circuit with the FI management tool. I also gave him the part number of the tool as printed in the owner's manual on page 9-26 (Yamaha diagnostic tool 90890-03125.)

He didn't have the tool onhand, so he tried to get it. Apparently, the supplier (K&L supply) said they won't be able to get any to dealers (wholesale supplier only) until December at the earliest. According to th service manager, the company had a software glitch in a previous version.

So... I need a part number other than the one listed, that allows adjustment of the idle circuit. Do any of you have one?????

I also mentioned the possibility of using an "older" FI management tool. He had one made for the Raptor and tried it. It would give diagnostic information, but there wasn't an ability for any adjustment.

Hope someone out there can help.

Thanks,

Jon

Man what a nightmare. Do they charge you to make this kinder adjustment? Have to love that only a dealer can make this adjustment but they don't have access to the tool.

I'm looking to get a 4 stroke 450 and think this bike is appealing which is why I'm here to learn about it.

I thought the point of the FI is that they can make these adjustments. Again I'm a newbie in this world.

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Man what a nightmare. Do they charge you to make this kinder adjustment? Have to love that only a dealer can make this adjustment but they don't have access to the tool.

I'm looking to get a 4 stroke 450 and think this bike is appealing which is why I'm here to learn about it.

I thought the point of the FI is that they can make these adjustments. Again I'm a newbie in this world.

It's been a learning process for me as well.

With the competition ECU, which I have, the owner (me) can make adjustments from 4000 rpm and above. Below 4000 rpm, no one can make any adjustments EXCEPT the dealer can make IDLE CO adjustments with Yamaha diagnostic tool as mentioned previously. I think those adjustments will if not cure, then help my starting issues.

I called 4 larger Yamaha dealerships yesterday and no one had the tool. It was a pain even trying to describe the issue to them. It's not particular easy to ask if they have a tool on hand. As soon as that's asked, then they want to know why you need it... It's an education process. Many of the dealers don't know what's going on with the bike. I'd love to find a dealer that understands the issue and has the tool!

"Never buy a first year model of anything..."

Jon

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It's obvious the electric start won't work when it's cold. And I found when it's really hot I have to let a cool just a minute and it will work. But I figured out the other day that if I use the hot start, let it crank two or three times but then release the throttle back to zero position, the e start will work when the bike is really hot.

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It's obvious the electric start won't work when it's cold. And I found when it's really hot I have to let a cool just a minute and it will work. But I figured out the other day that if I use the hot start, let it crank two or three times but then release the throttle back to zero position, the e start will work when the bike is really hot.

Do you mean you use the cold start knob??

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No, the hot start procedure is to open the throttle to the marks on the grip.

That's actually the high altitude starting tip.

Per the manual...

"If the engine does not start at high altitude, start the engine with the throttle grip opened by one degree or two degrees.

The mark on the throttle housing indicates five degrees. Use the mark for your reference when opening the throttle grip."

But hey, if you can start it hot using that method, good on you! I still can't find a hot start method that works!

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