California Air Resource Board

Hey guys,

I keep hearing people bitching about the green stickers in CA. I took a minute to look at the CARB website and I found that mostly, CARB was pissed off at 2 stroke engines. Its intent was to drive manufacturers to produce 4 stroke engines for OHV's. The only standard I found that an OHV had to meet was the "grams-per-kilometer (g/km) emissions standards of 1.2 hydrocarbons (HC) and 15.0 carbon monoxide (CO)".

So, I wondered, if your bike (especially a four stroke bike) meets these standards, why can't it get a green sticker? The answer may be in something else I found:

"Manufacturers of off-road motorcycles and ATVs must ensure that their vehicles conform to the appropriate emission levels for a period of 5 years or 10,000 km (whichever occurs first). If the vehicles are found to be in violation of the standards, manufacturers will be responsible for the repair of the vehicle at no cost to the consumer."

So, apparently, the reason we can't take our 4 stroke dirt bikes to the local smog station to get a green sticker is because the manufacturers (other than KTM) haven't been willing to step up to the plate and garuntee emission standards. That is why we have the "eighth digit" rule on the VIN. I guess when the manufacturers decide to back up their bikes, they will be allowed to change the "3's and C's" to something else.

In my opinion, it all stinks. We are all being abandoned by ambivilant manufacturers and an overzealous CARB. This is such a great state... too bad we have to have so many idiots in the state government that screw it up!

Jimbo

Please dont push this issue on the manufactuer! It is hard for me to believe that Yamaha is not confident to stand behind their product.

From what I understand the state requirers alot of money to approve a certain model as "green sticker legal". They built the green sticker WR but refused to bow down to the blackmail policies of CA. They should be commended! I wish the other bike manufacturers would do the same.

As I have said in the past, this issue has nothing to do with the enviorment but more to do with money and "public lands" the liberals want to keep you out of.

I'm not pushing it off on the manufacturers as much as I am no CA. Obviously, CA has made the rules such that it creates a huge potential liability for the manufacturers. However, with that said, I don't feel any need to commend Yamaha. They might be refusing to "bow down" because of principle, but I am still riding a red sticker bike.

Jimbo

By the way, how did you get a green sticker WR250??

Jimbo

Jim,

After discussing this issue many times with people on this board I have never heard of anyone being sent home for riding with a red sticker. The most important thing they want to see is current registration, spark arrestor, and most recently, compliance with the new sound laws.

The reason I got a green sticker is because the paperwork for my bike just happened to slip through, that has not been uncommon in the past. The DMV employees were not trained in the new law. They did not have enough time to get organized when the burden of enforcing it was dumped on their shoulders by the state. Now the DMV employees at the local level as well as the state level are better trained to recognise the 8th digit.

There is a thread on the CRF 450 side that says there is some talk about eliminating red sticker issues through 2002 and starting all over beginning with the 03,s. I think the state level realizes how screwed up things are and are looking for the best way to fix it. It doesn't seem as they will be enforcing this law until they make a decision on how to get things straightend out!.

With that said, You and I are on the same side.

good riding!! :D:)

He is both right and wrong to "push this issue on the manufacturer". While it is the fault of all Americans to let this kind of crap get "sneaked through", Yamaha was obviously well aware of it way in advance.

KTM is the only manufacturer who is listening and trying to help its buyers in the U.S.

Yamaha doesn't give a rat's p'tut. Profit is ALL they are concerned with. They know very well what our needs are here. They do not spend dollar one to support our right to ride or to protect their own market or to fight this BS type of legislation. They play a game laid out well in advance. Everything you buy from them is obsolete before you receive it. Now you "need" NEXT year's model, and their crappy factory graphics haven't even fallen off THIS year's model yet!...

Do you think for one minute that "auto-decomp" was something JUST developed for the YZ/WR? Do you think for one minute that e-start for the WR was JUST thunk up? Do you think for one minute that Yamaha could not introduce a retrofit auto-decomp cam specifically for the earlier models? Do you think that recent noise requirements were a big surprise to Yamaha? How about emissions laws scheduled years in advance?

Get real. Yamaha just wants to sell bikes. They do not want to fix woodruff keys. They do not care if the new bike you pay a quarter of your annual take-home pay for is allowed even in off-road areas. You already bought it. What do they care? I truly pity the buyers of the new WR's with problems and sincerely hope they get worked out; but I am laughing my head off at Yamaha Corporate! They really stepped in it! This should have been worked out years ago on a street-legal version, to which they continue to turn a blind eye.

They have (had?) a great thing going. All they have to do is slowly add little, but significant, improvements and hype it and people are willing to go on "waiting lists" for their product. They dictate to us. That will end one day. I hope KTM blows them away then. KTM deserves it. I was really rooting for Cannondale to do so.

Chaindrive,

Dude, help me up! It seems your reply was to one of my sentences, do you have any opinions on the main subject of this thread? Like I said, yamaha built a green sticker bike in 2001 and I would think that the stock WR exhaust of 01' would meet this years new sound law of 96dcb.

How many KTMs do you own? Have you ever lived in California? :):D And why should Yamaha pay the money when only one state is pushing for it?

What bike did Yamaha make in 01 that got a green sticker? As far as sound goes, the stock muffler on the WR is an 86db muffler. There is no reason why it the WR shouldn't get a green sticker, other than the fact that Yamaha won't guaruntee its emmission compliance for 5 years.

Jimbo

Sorry Chris,

It wasn't you I was going off on. I apologize if it came out that way. Yamaha just really disappoints me as a corporation. They have a responsibility to their customers and the sport that they are not meeting. They have a good product, but it could be great; or it could end as it's usefulness is legislated away. Anything that gets a start in California inevitably spreads to the rest of the country, usually getting worse with the typical political one-upmanship. Without a fight from the big corps., this kind of crap will keep getting worse. We, the people, damned sure don't have any say-so. The law is 96 decibals now, but what are the bikes? Why don't they fight for their own market? "We will buy them anyway". Will that change with the emissions laws slated to go in effect in '06? Those are really heavy!!

It is really bad when so many guys wait so long for their new bike and then receive no real support for the factory defects. "We will buy them anyway". Our loyalty is not reciprocated. How many guys have bought new bikes that can't even get a green sticker? Or go around the block w/o breaking? What good are they? The laws are designed to prevent us from bringing non-compliant bikes up to specs even when we actually do! They should come that way. It is far easier to strip off junk we don't need and retune for performance. Just give us the platform, potential, parts, and the stinkin' piece of compliance-paper and we will do the rest.

It is also insultingly irritating to always be a model year behind. Planned obsolesence. They are still in denial over not having sufficiently changed the cam gear and shaft from the 450 to prevent upgrading earlier models. Some engineer is in big trouble! What other possible reason was there for them to change the gear pitch? I would respect a company a lot more that said "Hey you early model owners; you too can benefit from our latest upgrade. We made sure to have a retrofit part. We build our products to hold their value and enjoyment and to be upgradeable whenever possible." Have you seen the plummet in values for even '02 models?! Not all of us can spend 6 grand on a new bike every year. But maybe every 3 or 4 we would remain loyal to a proven company and machine and buy another. Maybe sooner if our old one held any value.

As far as being a superior bike, I don't know if KTM is or not. My only ownership experience has been with their 50cc. That was not a good experience. But their 65's are really good. And I have read posts about KTM supporting right-to-ride organizations while the Japanese companies just count yen. I respect KTM for that alone.

For those of us requiring a dual-sport bike, Yamaha gives us the TTR :). Hard to accept when the WR is only a hair's breadth from being street-legal. I am getting so fed up with fighting the DOT that I am considering getting rid of the WR and just buying the loudest, pollutingest, nastiest straight-piped Harley I can find and just picking up some POS 2-smoke beater again for chasing the boys around.

Why can't Yamaha say "Here is a legal version of the WR that you can ride anywhere in any state right out of the box. Because we understand our customers' needs, we made sure everthing from it's pure-race brother, the YZ, will interchange, btw. What you do to it is your business :D(and good for our parts sales)." We do those performance upgrades already! If you live in a commie state like I do, where the bureaucrats don't care about anything but an MSO, you are home free! If you live in CA and the bike comes with a plate and green sticker, it is up to you to determine how much you could do and remain unhassled where you ride. They do not have to degrade the suspension or irreversibly choke the performance. Believe me, by '06, even the YZ will have to exceed the WR's current requirements or even the TTR's. Will they wait till '07 or '08 to see what can be done to meet those '06 requirements? Why not use the WR to get it down pat and bug-free ahead of time? If they ever want another dollar for a new bike out of me, they will have to.

1st of all... for God's sake chaindrive, put a sock in it and go buy a KTM already. If you don't want a Yamaha, guess what, don't buy one.

Secondly, CARB is mentally bankrupt. Singling out dirtbikes, not even 1% of the pollution load on the state, is a joke catagorically. Further, some contrived notion that riding Gorman one month, but not another month, somehow helps or enhances the city/state/planet somehow is likewise complete bullcrap. They are the kings of thoughtless policy and the red sticker program is exactly that.

Worse, the liberal overrun in California government, headed by chief whore and current govenor Joe "grey" Davis, is also linked hand in hand with the corruption, financially, morally, and even intellectually, that is a landmark of Davis policy and appearantly CA policy overall. CARB is the crown jewel of the socialistic crown in state and the 2 stroke issue in and of itself is a smokescreen and scapegoat to rape and pillage our laws and money. The greensticker program to this day runs a surplus in the millions on paper, but doesn't have a dollar of it, since the real kitty has been raided by the whores running our state.

Say, haven't you noticed the changeover to 4 stroke engines has done ZERO to help us, the rider, in the eyes of CARB???

gee.. why is that... could they have an agenda perhaps???

you think???

If I were Yamaha, not only would I NOT buy the permission and grace of CARB and the eco-nazi's et. al., but I would also let Cali and it's riding public dangle in the wind to prove the point, letting that assinine red sticker program screw enough of us until we get pissed off enough to get off our butt to fix something that should have never been broke.

Reporting live from the peoples republik of kalifornia, your buddy big_G.

Jim_bo,

You have too many idiots that ELECT so many idiots in the state government that screw it up!

And I will bet that most of those idiots that vote that way are not U S citizens or are DEAD (but still manage to vote anyway, if you get my drift)!!

"Government big enough to provide everything, is also big enough to take away everything".

This from a native Californian, now free at last in the Deep South.

Thanks,

fjd

The problem is a "California" thing...period!!! What the hell is a green sticker, red sticker, do you also have yellow, blue :), or what?

It's you fools in California that keep re-electing these Liberal morons such as Grey-out Davis. Then they try to push all thier liberal crap on the rest of the states.

I sincerely hope we don't have Red, Green, or ant other color stickers coming to Minnesota. In fact here, the DMV frowns upon even issueing a title unless you are going to Street legalize it. All the stickers and registrations simply amount to more taxes you have to pay plus the ability to place more restrictions on your lives.

Campain to vote the dip-$h!ts out. If you don't, they'll just keep chipping away at your rights and pocketbooks.

Don't blame me... I didn't vote for the idiot. As a matter of fact, since I am active duty military and I don't usually live in a state long enough to really get involved in state politics, I typically don't vote in state elections. However, for the first time, I voted in the last CA state election. I checked the "anybody but Joe Davis" block!

I bet there is not one TTer who voted for that bone head. If there is, just remember, you are part of the problem!!

The real problem is that in CA, the idiots outnumber the rest of us 10 to 1.

Jimbo

The real problem is that in CA, the idiots outnumber the rest of us 10 to 1.

Amen brother.

The state of Jefferson is a good idea. Cut california off at sacramento and combine it with southern oregon.

big_G,

Explain to me how Yamaha's refusal to help fight is helping them or their customers. Passiveness is surrender in politics. Doing nothing is supporting the enemy.

I agree with everything else you said except the "buy a KTM" part. I'm not buying any new bike until someone offers a true do-it-all bike that I can own and ride in peace. Is that too much to expect for $6,000? I have no problem with taking the initiative and creating my own; but guess what?: Kalifornia is not the only State governed by idiots.

Here,I have the DOT on one hand saying "Gee, we don't like to do this, and you may even be right. Why don't you talk to your legislators about clarifying the law?"

Of those legislators I have written to, only ONE has even responded.

And the first words out of his mouth: "You are right. The DOT is wrong, but I don't know what I can do about it... I will look into it and get back to you this week, though. I also want to see your bike. I have built four Harleys over the years." That was a friggin month ago and aside from me calling him once (to find out he has done nothing!), I have never heard from him.

Now, when a legislator, a LAWMAKER, says he "doesn't know what he can do about" a law so poorly written it is being misinterpreted and disagreed upon by the very officials charged with enforcing it, he needs to find a different job!! He can't even get me the hearing I was supposedly guaranteed. What hope is there for this form of government?

I AM fighting here. I don't have the resources of a major corporation, but I don't surrender... or stand idly by with my "high morals". I have earned the right to bitch and whine and criticize. I am very critical of those who don't fight back. I am not the only one getting hosed here, but since I am the only one fighting, I am easily ignored. I know why people go postal now! :)

Thirty minutes ago I was at my dealer's. He was still trying to talk me into taking home that beautiful WR450 still sitting there. "Not until I can buy it already legal. Then I want the first one." He said he really wished Yamaha would make them that way. "I could sell a sh*tload of them!". As I left, I suggested that maybe he take a couple of minutes and tell that to Yamaha...

Chaindrive: Apology accepted, no big deal. Can't be to thin skinned on this internet communicating stuff! I see your point on all of what you said above,

Big G: I'm with you on this hidden agenda thing. Some people call me paranoid, I just tell them to pull there heads out of the sand.

Jimbo: What I'm saying is that I'm willing to bet my bike that the 01'-03 WRs are green sticker legal. You say that Yamaha refused to garantee emissions for 5 years, Even if somebody left their bike completly stock, how could this be verified? Smog checks on dirtbikes? I say it's because Yamaha doesn't want to pay the "fee"

YZ250F49: You didn't tell me you were leaving!! :):D Now I have to convince another friend to vote conservative just to make up for you leaving!! :D :D

X2smoker: The red sticker program restricts some (most) bikes made in 97' or newer. These are "competition only bikes" and can not be ridden on state or federal lands in most areas of the state. Dont group all of us into Fools and maybe you should beware!!! Minn. could be next!!!

In reply to:

"The problem is a "California" thing...period!!!

You are SO wrong x2smoker. If you ride off road bikes, it's ALL of our problem. Apathy is contagious. Sooner or later it may be a "Minnesota Thing" as soon as your money grubbing, power hungry, beaurocracy building politicians find out they can fleece the off-road community for some precious tax dollars.

Washington state has the same "Green Sticker" program in place, but they have not yet banned two strokes from public lands (at least not while I was still there). But they are stealing the monies from the Off Road fund to pay off the General Fund (just like Ca did)!

If you don't have this problem yet, consider yourself lucky so far. Get involved in your local Govt, and do like you say:

"Campain to vote the dip-$h!ts out. If you don't, they'll just keep chipping away at your rights and pocketbooks."

RIDE ON, BRO!!

In reply to:

YZ250F49: You didn't tell me you were leaving!! Now I have to convince another friend to vote conservative just to make up for you leaving!!

whoyaChrisH,

I think I may be part of the problem. Conservatives like me are fleeing the state, increasing the ratio of Dips**ts to Conservatives. Sorry about that!! :)

While I like the South, I still miss the Mojave (or whats left of it)!

RIDE ON, BRO!!

Perhaps I could shed a bit of light on this debate.

It is my understanding from those in a position to know at Yamaha Motor US that YZ four strokes come the closest to complying with the CARB standard for OHV emissions. As the factory is “cloging” up the WR versions for sound, somehow the emissions go up way past the acceptable limit.

So it appear that the dirty air folks in Sacramento are not working in conjunction with the sound guys and the result is the bikes we get.

I know for a fact that Yamaha Motor Corporation (Japan) have tested and raced in Europe a fuel injection version of the YZ four strokes and they have found that this version has emissions less that the carburetor versions we see today. The problem with the FI is cost. I could see a easy $ 500.00 price tag on this FI set up and at the moment, and the market would likely balk.

And I think that someone here also hit the nail on the head with the 5 year warranty for emissions that a manufactures would have to supply and given that this is a dirt vehicle and many don’t maintain the same in the proper manner; I can clearly see where Yamaha may come from on this. Cost!!! Put simply, add another $ 200.00 - $ 300.00 to the price of the bike.

Finally, one needs to remember that YZ/WR sales are but a small fraction of Yamaha’s business. Utility ATV’s, for example, are by far a larger percentage of their business and are much more profitable. Yes, Yamaha is mostly concerned with profits. I don’t know of any business that isn’t.

But one needs to remember that the parts and accessory division makes big money for Yamaha. If Yamaha thought for one moment that they could sell lots and lots of camshafts by retrofitting from the 450’s to earlier models, and the engineering would work; don’t you think they (Yamaha) would do so? I can tell you that I was the first dealer in the US to get YZ 250F cams to sell to the 2001 and 2002 models. I’ve sold and installed lots of them and still have 6 in stock at this time. It has been great business for us from both the sale of, and the installation of these cams.

We also need to remember that the WR is considered by Yamaha as a competition machine. As such, during a competitive event, the color of the registration in California does not come into play.

As to the red/green sticker thing, I can report that last week there was a meeting in Folsom California with CARB, DMV, the OHV Division, BLM and Forest Service folks. Part of the meeting was about the enforcement of the new sound standard in California and the other part was about the emission issue.

From what I’ve been told from those who were present, model year 2002 and earlier will now receive a “green sticker” when their renewal is up. Model year 2003 and later will only get a “red sticker” if the vehicle does not comply with the emission standard. This is allegedly to occur at the end of July of this year.

The problem as I see it is of enforcement. Under the REGULATION (not a law) currently set forth by CARB, I don’t see a section that addresses enforcement of the operation of a “red sticker” vehicle in the areas and dates “closed” to these vehicles. Further, I have not been able to have a law enforcement person who can quote me what they would cite me under when writing a ticket for me operating such a vehicle during such a seasonal closure. If somewhere out there knows what the proper citation is, please provide it for me.

Finally, the only way I see to stop this madness of CARB and OHV emissions is to litigate the issue. I've got all the background data CARB used to implement this regulation and I'm appalled at what I see. While this issue of litigation is way too complex to discuss here, I see huge holes in the "science" CARB utilizes for this regulation. Some of the “baseline” data offered by CARB utilizes the emissions from a 1985 RZ 350 motor. Also, the “assumptions” used by CARB about the operation of our vehicles is suspect. I could go on and on about this.

Suffice it to say that if the industry/user groups got together and took on CARB, I’ve been told by three very good law firms we have one heck of a good case.

Now for the hard part. The cost of such litigation would easily reach $ 1.5 million. Who is willing to step up and pay?

YZ250F49: Point well taken! I was blowin' off some steam because these types of "GREENIE" laws and restrictions frequently start in California and spread easterly.

I do see it coming here. too. It's been our DNR that is under fire from the tree huggin' leftists and so far the DNR has managed to fare well. I just hope we never get into that green & red sticker thing. That seems to have been a huge win for the greenies.

x2

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now