this is something that i feel strongly about. Good article. kinda long

Bflee,Ego i totally agree with you guy's and don't forget about Florida either i used to live down there,try going to Miami and not know spanish. The majority of the convienent mart's were owned by arab's.This subject is a sore spot with me,i spent 8yrs. in the army at FT. BRAGG and 80% of the time i was stuck in some s***hole country trying to help them or defend them and we weren't welcome.Most of the countries i was in hated us and hated Americans.I could keep going but i type to slow and i'm starting to get pissed so i'll quit while i'm ahead and have a beer.

BTW,i'm going to the national's this weekend at Kenworthy's in Troy,Ohio that's one place where an American white boy is a majority and not a minority.

Originally posted by BFLee:

WE ARE NOT RESPOSIBLE FOR EVERY FREELOADING LOOSER IN THIS WORLD!!

I agree. But most immigrants work, that is why they came here. IMO most freeloaders are citizens. Illegal immigrants, in most cases, won’t even fill out a census form, much less apply for govt. aid (emergency room visits notwithstanding). This probably applies to a great deal of legal immigrants as well, who may have family members here illegally or are unaware of the services that, as citizens, are rightfully theirs to take advantage of.

Requiring some kind of waiting period for new citizens to be eligible for health care, unemployment and whatever other benefits you are talking about is ridiculous. I’m sure there are a tiny percentage of immigrants who come here expressly to take advantage of these services, but you cannot possibly argue with my assertion that the overwhelming majority of immigrants come here to work and be productive (just like your ancestors did).

If any group is guilty of abusing public services, it sure isn’t immigrants.

Not to be harsh but I’m at a loss to explain your feelings to the contrary unless I consider some kind of inherent bias. That is all I’m gonna say about that.

Originally posted by BFLee:

White, Male, Christians are the most discriminated against group in America today, and it is sanctioned by the government and the media.

I just had to add that I think you are right about that.

There are deeper issues then language,

The Fact that Mexico inits entire nation looks at and views America as thiefs for taking Calif Texas and new mexico. They View this as a nation as their right to own. There are groups in the Untied states planted her by the mexican governemt to infiltrat governments, schools and local sociaty. They have a plan in place to retake the states as there own.

There is more to this then what we see. Call me paranoid but look at the America Hating American Nazi's (NOW, Act-Up, Earth First) and the list goes on. Look at the Legal institution when it came to Johnnie Jehad (walker) that lil traiter SOB should have been pushed off the carrier before he got here. Look at the last 8 years of a president an VP we had.

We are in this mess becouse we are SHEEPLE, we do not want to know anything until our face is slapped. I am afraid that this country is in a bad situation, the Governement media complex never tells the full truth. I got sick to my stomach when that LA "TERRORSIT" Shooter took the lives of the inocent and all the TV Media Governement coplex could do was only say things about the family he left behind. SCREW THE SAND MONKEY, I want to know about the victims family and how they feel.......

I am sorry its a very touchy subject to me also. I believ taht we should just shut to boarders down for awhile clean this mess up and deport those that dont belong. Arrest the Red Diaper Doper Baby Lawyesr who's treasonist acts gettig terrorists and sympathiser off is a good place to start...

Geez I want to go riding now see what you all started....... :D:D:)

[ July 12, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

Originally posted by Hick:

Not to be harsh but I’m at a loss to explain your feelings to the contrary unless I consider some kind of inherent bias. That is all I’m gonna say about that.

A little background.

My family has operated manufacturing businesses in California since 1948. My brother and I are the 3rd generation to manage these companies. In this 54+ years time span we have employed many people in the "lower" end of the job market. Since the mid sixties the overwhelming majority of our employees have been hispanic. All but a few of these hispanic employees have been the most productive, loyal, and appreciative employees in the entire history of our companies and they have made invaluable contributions to our success. Am I biased? Hardly, I know and totally appreciated how my great crew made my job easy. And we tried to reward our employees for the outstanding efforts. In our $7 to $10 /hr factory jobs our benefits include 3 weeks of paid time off per year, 9+ paid holidays, Christmas bonuses of 2% of salary earned to date, company IRA contibutions of up to 6%, and full medical. These benefits are outrageous for this class of job and are competitve with profesional and union benefits. This is not required in our state it is entirely voluntary, 50+ years of experience teaches you how to be successful. Treat people right and they will respond.

You may live close to the border but you live in a small city. There is no way your community is impacted like California is. Texas also does not have liberal government like California that is so willing to give away the farm to any one willing to whine loud enough. If you think people don't come here specifically to take advantage of the benefits you are deluded. I am not saying all or a majority, I am saying it is a component of the total. My B.A. in Economics from the University of California taught me not to make unsubstantiated assumptions like that.

Originally posted by BFLee:

You may live close to the border but you live in a small city. There is no way your community is impacted like California is. Texas also does not have liberal government like California that is so willing to give away the farm to any one willing to whine loud enough. If you think people don't come here specifically to take advantage of the benefits you are deluded. I am not saying all or a majority, I am saying it is a component of the total.

Small? I guess it is relative, but I live in the largest international border community IN THE WORLD. El Paso is about 700k and 65% Hispanic, Juarez is about 2.5M.

As for Texas being more conservative politically than CA, there are 48 other states who can probably make the same claim. Local politics here in EP are pretty liberal relative to the rest of Texas.

I never said people didn’t come here to take advantage of govt. benefits, just that the vast majority come here to work and be productive. Therefore it makes no sense to discriminate against the entire group based on the actions of a small minority, which is what are advocated in your post. IMO that is unjust, unfair, discriminatory, unconstitutional, and just plain wrong.

Most Immigrants work yes; they also come her to work at burglarizing, selling dope raping and pillaging our country.

You live in Al Paso I live in the Ag area of Calif, I see more immigrants then most.

I also whole hearted disagree with your observation. I see the lines at the western union every Friday, with the Illi's sending money to Mexico for there family. I also see them at the Welfare department at the Grocery store with Food stamps, at the hospital and I pay for that.

So do not give me your bleeding heart liberal gibberish regarding there good for America. We have had numbers of stabbings; robberies rapes and drunk driving Murderers flee back to Mexico to escape the law. Does Mexico help with extradition NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Does Mexico let our people go NOT ON YOUR LIFE.

What happens if we go there to start crap, we get put in jail and disappear in the process. We have Mexican Military taking pot shots at border patrol, sending armed excursions in American soil to aid Drug Smugglers

I don’t care if your 5th 6th 7th generation and have a " better perspective” I see it this way

BOARDERS LANGUAGE CULTURE

Bottom line is for me I have no issue's if a "Immagrant" wants to be just that Migrate from his country of birth to the united states to better his / her life. Mor epower to him, What I disagree with is the swinging door attitude that people think the world is entitled to just walk in spit on us and leave.

If he / she wants to come and live then fine, they have so many days to become a citizen or leave real simple. I am tired of supporting welfar dogs American and Illeagle

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

Originally posted by E.G.O.****:

Most Immigrants work yes; they also come her to work at burglarizing, selling dope raping and pillaging our country.

You live in Al Paso I live in the Ag area of Calif, I see more immigrants then most.

I also whole hearted disagree with your observation. I see the lines at the western union every Friday, with the Illi's sending money to Mexico for there family. I also see them at the Welfare department at the Grocery store with Food stamps, at the hospital and I pay for that.

So do not give me your bleeding heart liberal gibberish regarding there good for America. We have had numbers of stabbings; robberies rapes and drunk driving Murderers flee back to Mexico to escape the law. Does Mexico help with extradition NOT ON YOUR LIFE. Does Mexico let our people go NOT ON YOUR LIFE.

First off I don’t know why I bother with you EGO, because you DON’T READ MY POSTS. Either that or your reading comprehension is not good, but I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Your basic idea seems to be that immigrants are bad for this country. Okay, since when? At what point in time did this country transform itself from a nation built by immigrants to one that is being plundered by them? Oh, it was AFTER your ancestors were immigrants? They were “good immigrants” and these newer ones are “bad.” Give me a break.

Also, you mention the Mexican government, which has many problems, which is a good part of the reason why they are sending so many immigrants our way, so to punish these immigrants for the policies of the Mexican govt. that they are fleeing would be the height of irony.

As for the smugglers and those criminals who use Mexico to escape the law changing immigration law will do absolutely nothing to thwart them. You shouldn’t lump them into this issue, they are ALREADY breaking the law, we don’t need some new policy, other than more effective law enforcement perhaps, to deal with these crimes.

So, to attempt to improve Mexico’s govt., which you rightly criticize, should we:

a) Attempt some kind of blockade ala Cuba? That seems to be working well!! :)

:D Try to influence them and make them more democratic, proactively. With the PRI finally out of power, sort of, now is the time for us to make the most of our (huge) political influence. That is more or less the Bush policy, but hasn’t been to the fore since 9/11 for obvious reasons.

I’m no liberal, far from it, but I have the capacity to think for a REALISTIC solution to the immigration issue. Can we seal the border? No. What will increasing the barriers to legal immigration do? Answer: create MORE illegal immigrants. How can we most cost effectively reduce immigration from Mexico? Answer: help create more economic opportunity in Mexico, already being done very successfully via policies like NAFTA.

As for the “illis” you see w/ food stamps, you pay for that but so do LEGAL immigrants, most of whom have jobs and pay taxes. I still am waiting for either you or BFLee to explain to me why you want to punish an entire group for the actions of a small minority of their members.

Say, does that sound familiar to someone concerned over riding and land use issues? Hypocrite.

Hick

You put up with me same reason I put up with you, We like to argue good points

Which brings me to the term Immagrent

Pronunciation: 'i-mi-gr&nt

Function: noun

Date: 1789

: one that immigrates : as a : a person who comes to a country to take up permanent residence b : a plant or animal that becomes established in an area where it was previously unknown

- immigrant adjective

So please stop refering to Illi's as imagrents you shame my ancestry See my web site

My Dedication to REAL IMMAGRANTS

I comprehend just fine, you dont seem to grasp what I am saying. Or maybe we both are so thickheaded we can not see or except the others Point of view. We both are passionate in what we discuss. But the flaw in your referal to these Illi's Illeagl Aliens "NOT IMMAGRENTS" is incorrect. I never stated Immagrents dont have a right I stated Illi's dont have a right they dont migrate the come and suck like the leaches they are our lifes blood.

Bottom line

If you look at my web site you may understand I have th ehighest regards for those that come to America legally, and become Citizens that contribute to our great contry

CHris PArks

You Wrote

a country basted on god was what people where trying to get away from.

You could not have been more wrong, Those that came from England and started this great nation were getting away for tyranny and the Church of England in which totally governed the society of England and its rulers. Get your history correct please. This is the only "INVALID" Argument the sepration from Church and state groups have..and they dont have it right either

Hick

You Wrote

If you really believe that then you are suffering from paranoid delusions, but then we already knew about your frequent delusions. Take a sick day, go home, and take your medication.

Do your Homework, La-Raza is a well funded organization funded strongly by the Mexican Government with ties to Radical groups in Mexico that are advocating a take over of the Calif, New Mexico and Texas.

Plus

Because helping to educate our neighbors helps us, in the short AND long term. Just because there is a line on some map doesn’t mean they don’t live RIGHT THERE! If their lives/economy/infrastructure are improved they will buy more products in the US (and steal less cars & smuggle less dope, although there is very little crime in El Paso). As their economy advances they will pollute less. As more of their students are educated at American schools their attitudes and policies will be more favorable for us… Hint: educated Mexicans with job skills are not the ones wading the Rio Grande. So it is a win-win situation, I used to work in Mexico, I’m a fifth generation So. New Mexican/El Pasoan, I’ve seen this with my own eyes.

Helping to Educate, Why do I have to pay out of my pocket tuition to help educate NON-Americans, when I have AMERICANS who cannot go to the same college? Why do I have to pay for programs that force English-speaking AMERICANS to be in a classroom with Illegal aliens children that do not speak English? WHY?

Also You name me one Mexican Born National that was educated by the US or Mexico, that benifited Mankind or his own people with a significant techical achievment.

If you think its good for the economy, then come down to Hollister Calif and see what it’s done for us. Who is the Naive one here?

Now go back and reread your last post and mine

Again you do not understand what it is I am saying. Let me clearly state for the record.

I think that Immigration has its place in the United States, as it was when My Granddad and Grandma came from Poland. They learned the language, made their kids learn the language and became productive citizens of this great nation. Hick you say that illi’s pay taxes, man not were I live, they are paid in cash, buy the coyotes that brought them here, after they take a big chunk of change from them. I feel sorry about that, but if the immigrants came here legally they would not have to deal with there own kind using them as slaves. Ya I said “they would not have to deal with there own kind using them as slaves”

I really believe that you have no grounds for argument, that’s why you “Can’t Put up with me”. I also feel that if we took a poll, that greater then 90% would agree with me. I also believe its not just Mexico, its Panama, all South America 3rd world, Asia, Africa and yes even Canada are destroying the American Dream by not coming to American Soil LEAGALLY

Thas all I got to say on this

Hick you are all right, Miss Guided in my opinion, but you think of me the same way, thats cool, thats America. :)

I hope that this is only takin as a spirited debat for you and I.

Ego

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

This is my first post here and I can't Believe that it has nothing to do with motorcycles....

I have been reading all the posts for the last few months and have learned a lot of important helpful tips from a lot of you .. So for that I say thank you!

Now to the issue at hand!

For the subject of removing "under god" from the Pledge. Well That was added to the pledge back in the 50's and it was a violation of our constituion . Freedom of religion my a$$... I choose not to believe in god for my own reasons. Reasons of which I don't have the time to post. If in fact this is a free country then why is it I try to teach my children my ways of thinking and then they have to go to school and be forced to think another? If you want to pray ...fine pray at home or in church or anywhere that will not influence my children..School is where i send my children to learn the facts and religion is simply not a fact. Before there was a religious section in the library the Bible was found under the fiction section..I don't want my kids being taught to believe from fiction. I read through all these replies and I wish i had time to speak my opinion on them all. As for the immigration issue. I was born and partially raised in Escondido CA (north San Diego). The past 20 years that place has populated immensely with illeagal mexicans. I would have to say that they do work hard but,,,,,,,,,, they also take advantage of our system. For some odd reason they think that the laws do not apply to them. Here we are REQUIRED to carry auto insurance .I would have to say 50% of the accidents are involving a mexican with NO auto insurance(in Escondido). So now we have to carry insurance for them...Uninsured motor insurance is a slap in the face if you ask me.I now currently live near Palm Springs CA and We also have our share of brown units here too. When i say they take advantage i mean they work for cash and still collect welfare. I would not blame them for wanting to get somthing for nothing but when it comes out of my pocket then I'm not to happy about it. It's not just the mexicans who take advantage . I only singled them out cause they are the majority here. I know that there are many others who take advantage , they are everywhere and every race. I have seen plenty of white and black trash to go along with the rest.. It all boils down to us.. We have to strive to make our children try hard and succeed in life. Life isn't fair but we have to make do with what we have. It feels good to let out how we feel but it really isn't going to change anything. If you want things to change Make sure you read up on all the latest propositions and cast your vote and hope it doesn't get lost (lol whoops thats a whole other topic)Well thats all that I Can think of at the moment and damn I feel better . Sorry if I offended anyone, I'm not here to piss anyone off. This is a forum where we speak our feelings and I did just that..

Thanks,

Dave

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: ThUmPiNtheDeSeRt ]

But How far can you Jump :)

Just kidding

I agree with you Dave all excpet the school thing.

But I wont post my rhetoric on that.

Bottom line is......whether your white, black, brown, or yellow.....we are all decendents of immigrants (legal or not). Just ask our fellow "Native Americans".

For the most part, this has been quite an intreiguing thread. It's not the immigrants that contribute to our idea of a great country, but the illegal's that mooch off of what makes this a great country, and have nothing to give to support and promote these ideals.

BTW EGO, very nice web site :) !

Dodger :D:D

Originally posted by Hick:

As for the “illis” you see w/ food stamps, you pay for that but so do LEGAL immigrants, most of whom have jobs and pay taxes. I still am waiting for either you or BFLee to explain to me why you want to punish an entire group for the actions of a small minority of their members.

Say, does that sound familiar to someone concerned over riding and land use issues? Hypocrite.

So you have degenerated into name calling. That is such an effective way to debate a point :) . Somebody doesn't agree with you and that is where you go. Real nice. I think you have shown your true potential.

You say you are not a liberal? Your entire position is nothing but liberal hand wringing, politically correct, apologetic BS. How is proposing conservative fiscal policy to be considered as "punishment". That is such a left wing position. What you are saying is that anybody who comes across the border is somehow entitled to take whatever they can get away with.

There is no way to explain your stance other than you have an unmentioned ulterior motive.

Originally posted by Dodger:

Bottom line is......whether your white, black, brown, or yellow.....we are all decendents of immigrants (legal or not). Just ask our fellow "Native Americans". Dodger :):D

Not everybody feels this way. A great deal of my ancestry was here before the Declaration of Independence (in fact, Francis Eaton of the Mayflower). They were not immigrants, they were founders.

Yeah BFLee, it definately can be looked at that way, but nothing takes away from the fact that our "founding fathers" still were immigrants, good or bad. They built and founded what is now (and for that matter, has always been) the greatest country on the planet. To do so, they needed to broker a deal with the native americans to get the land. What a sweet deal it was too (at least for our founders and all their decendents). I grew up in South Dakota, and have visited most of the native american reservations in the state. Boy, sure wish I could have one of those delapadated houses out there on the desolate prairy, sweeeeeet!!!! Our founding fathers took their land, gave them small parcels of reservation land, and demanded they smile about it. BTW, the only persons who speak "native american", are the natives, no matter what dialect it is. Were we forced to conform??? Nope, just took the land.

I totally agree that people who make their way to this country to better their lives, need to, no no no, HAVE TO respect the fact that they were givin this chance to do so. And there in, they need to respect our language, and they need to respect what it is to be a true american (not just and immigrant american). They should feel free to speak their own language, but also be required to converse in our "Native" tongue.

Dodger :):D

Dodger

you Wrote

I totally agree that people who make their way to this country to better their lives, need to, no no no, HAVE TO respect the fact that they were givin this chance to do so. And there in, they need to respect our language, and they need to respect what it is to be a true american (not just and immigrant american). They should feel free to speak their own language, but also be required to converse in our "Native" tongue.

You said it, that is the issue, there is no inforcement to learn the English Language, for that matter what it is to become a productive Citizen. In fact we force our kids to learn Mexican, Vietnamese as other languages also in our schools. This is a fact in ourt schools, Why is this, Becouse of Liberal bleeding hearts that want an = playing field.

So what do they do? the tear down our educational system to a third world level, instead of giving those kids a chance at a better life by learning the English Language. No person will get anyhigher in buisness or work if they do not know how to read and write English proficiantly PERIOD. Ya our founding fathers would be turning in there graves if they could see our progress. The stats are there, the united states has the lowest point grade average in the world along with Mexico and other 3rd world countries.

What does that tell you. It tells me there is a distructive entity in the U.S. to destroy our culture and break down those Borders.

As far as the American Indians go , We (I mean The United States Governement) Screwed them royally, and that I am ashamed of. You look at the contribution the American Indian has made to America in culture, WWII and anywhere else they serviced this great land. Can you say the same for any other culture outside of the Japanese, Chinese, Italian, Irish, Polock, Sweds, and so on. These People came over with the ambition to make a new life for themselves, with no help from the governement, no promises no nothing, just give me you down troded.

The rest come as leaches to take and not give.

Hick I know your reading this

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

Do you think any other country bends over backwards (and forwards ) like America does to accomodate/placate every whiner? No way!

I think that Canada has been bending over further and for longer than any other country.

I also believe its not just Mexico, its Panama, all South America 3rd world, Asia, Africa and yes even Canada are destroying the American Dream by not coming to American Soil LEAGALLY

E.G.O. if you think that Canada contributes to the destruction of The American Dream with illegal immigration, then you really are a dumb Polock! :):D

In actual fact, American hospitals and companies solicit like crazy at our universities. They scoop our best and brightest with huge wages, moving expenses paid, paperwork taken care of etc. This is happening so much that there is a shortage of doctors and nurses here. The Canadian media call it "the brain drain" ,and it is well documented.

They recently did a welfare fraud crackdown in the province where I live and discovered a large number of American college students (mostly of mid-eastern descent)that were fraudulently claiming refugee status and had received thousands of dollars each from our welfare system.

Several years ago our government did a review of our health care system and guess what? They discovered many American citizens that had obtained Canada health cards by fraudulent means and had been getting free health care!

Our immigration policies are so screwed up here that we even have American citizens that have claimed refugee status here and had it granted! One case that I recall reading about, a man that was facing murder charges (I believe in Texas) was granted refugee status because he was facing the death penalty. Up here there is no capital punishment, no matter how heinous the crime, apparently the death penalty is "cruel and unusual punishment". :D

I'm not trying to slag the U.S.A., but point out that there are problems everywhere. Immigration is essential for both our countries, but our immigration policies and department need a serious overhaul. It is far too easy to take advantage of us. Canada is known as the sucker nation of the world. These a-holes come here, claim refugee status, then milk the system. It ruins it for the legitimate immigrants that want to work, contribute and build a better life.

Hick - I must say that your opinions and commentary don't match your handle, very un-hick like if you ask me. I agree with most of what you've got to say, but be careful that you don't lean too far to the left, that's the problem that we have up here. There is a fine line between being a tolerant, permissive and decent society, and being taken advantage of.

This has turned out to be a very interesting topic. Almost as good as the infamous "how loud is too loud" thread. This is still a dirt bike site, right? :D

Peace - Peter Z.

Pete Z

Part of the reason for the onslaught of your educated Dr's coming to America is to get out of the Dogma of Socialized medicine in your socialist country (Thats for calling me Pollock :):D ). America is in the grips of that choking dog right now and it isn’t working, So we are loosing Dr's as fast as you are loosing them out of College. I have knwo three Dr's in Specialized med, Sport Orthopidics, internal and a surgeon who just plain quit, becouse of the model of Socialized Medicine.

You also wrote

They recently did a welfare fraud crackdown in the province where I live and discovered a large number of American college students (mostly of mid-eastern descent) that were fraudulently claiming refugee status and had received thousands of dollars each from our welfare system.

What a crock of crap Americans of Middle Eastern Decent, What you have is Middle Eastern People (NON Americans) Taking advantage of your system as they do here. Don’t wrap them into the American Flag Eh!

I am saying about Canada is they have no border control at all, Mid East Terror has come through your purlly gates to America unrestrained, And thats a fact.

So don’t give me your Canuck attitude about the States. Remember peter Jennings that piece of Crap Socialist Canadian... He should be deported....

After he has been tried as a collaborator to the Al-Quida

Peace Eh!

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

Originally posted by Pete Z:

In actual fact, American hospitals and companies solicit like crazy at our universities. They scoop our best and brightest with huge wages, moving expenses paid, paperwork taken care of etc. This is happening so much that there is a shortage of doctors and nurses here. The Canadian media call it "the brain drain" ,and it is well documented.

Peace - Peter Z.

The only reason this is happening is because of Canadas socialized medical system and YOU KNOW IT. The doctors and nurses leave because they can make MORE MONEY IN AMERICA. Nobody is forcing them to come here except Canadas own system.

More PROOF that SOCIALISM does NOT WORK.

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