HEADS UP!!!

Site upgrade in progress... Core site functions are working, but some non-critical features/functions will be temporarily unavailable while we work to restore them over the next couple of weeks.

Please post any bugs you encounter, but before you do, check to see if it's already listed.

Thanks for your patience while we work to improve the community.

Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
2smokeforlife

direct injection

61 posts in this topic

he they fellow 2smokers we need to start pressuring yamaha to put R@D into a direct injection bike they already have the tecnology in there outboard motors, i think if they have enough request for they will built it so we need to band together to make it happen, dont let them push us out of the game with there 4jokers

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

+1, the only problem is that they make TONS more money selling valves and all the other crap that goes with them... but they're not just in outboard engines, BRP (ski-doo) also has them in their sleds so I guess we can still hope.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may be crazy to think Yamaha did not have this ready to go for the yz 250 and did not produce it. I was not too happy to see the technology stay the same, but the cost continue to go up.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, however I think Yamaha is still testing the 2 smoker waters, waiting to see if building 2 strokes is still profitable for them....if a large amount of interest is received we might just be surprised what Yamaha takes a chance on however!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Im in. An outboard mechanic I know swears the direct inject 2 stroke is 60% more fuel efficient then carb. motors. That would be sweet to open up how far you can run on a tank full.:D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They are also in Yamaha GP1300 waverunners aswell....

The EFI in the GP is not direct injection. DI is a different animal when it comes to efficiency and emissions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
+1, the only problem is that they make TONS more money selling valves and all the other crap that goes with them... but they're not just in outboard engines, BRP (ski-doo) also has them in their sleds so I guess we can still hope.

Cha, plus 1

You gotta check out the video on the skidoo main page.

http://www.ski-doo.com/en-US/

[press] play video!!!

Can't see Yamaha not putting a DI 250 2 stroke into the YZ real soon..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
he they fellow 2smokers we need to start pressuring yamaha to put R@D into a direct injection bike they already have the tecnology in there outboard motors, i think if they have enough request for they will built it so we need to band together to make it happen, dont let them push us out of the game with there 4jokers

What happened.... did you spill a little premix on your hands while mixing your gas? :D

It would be a advancement, but I would guess that people buying 2 strokes wouldn't really trade in their existing bikes to get direct injection. I know I won't. I think that measuring cup cost about $4 and takes about 4 seconds to measure 20 ounces to pour into the 5 gallon jug.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What happened.... did you spill a little premix on your hands while mixing your gas? :D

It would be a advancement, but I would guess that people buying 2 strokes wouldn't really trade in their existing bikes to get direct injection. I know I won't. I think that measuring cup cost about $4 and takes about 4 seconds to measure 20 ounces to pour into the 5 gallon jug.

Direct injection is not oil injection.

Direct injection is a form of EFI, with the injector directly in the cylinder or head. Allows fuel to be timed seperatly from the incoming air charge, allowing more power, FAR better emissions, and increased fuel economy. It's the only way 2 strokes will be able to survive the ever more demanding emissions requirements.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
FAR better emissions, and increased fuel economy. It's the only way 2 strokes will be able to survive the ever more demanding emissions requirements.

Yaw, if you watch that video on the skidoo page it is clear that the direct injected 2 strokes are cleaner. WAIT ONE SEC, all the 2 strokes burnt cleaner than the Yamaha 4 stroke, AND BY A FAIR MARGIN!!!

SO,

If this whole 4 stroke thing is about emissions, everyone that bought 4's because they burn cleaner were mislead!

If this whole 4 stroke thing is about reliability, everyone that bought 4's because they are more reliable were mislead!

We all know that the smoke that comes out of a "properly" jetted 2 stroke only happens on warm-up & that vid shows (sells) the lack of "warm-up" smoke, but when they stuffed that 02 sensor up the butt of that 4 stroke, man I was shocked...

If Yamaha doesn't make a new lighter better 2 stroke & soon, I'm sure Honda will come out of retirement & blow Yamaha away with one just like Yamaha slapped everyone in the face with their 4 stroke.

Trust me, it's not if, its when!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Direct injection is not oil injection.

Direct injection is a form of EFI, with the injector directly in the cylinder or head. Allows fuel to be timed seperatly from the incoming air charge, allowing more power, FAR better emissions, and increased fuel economy. It's the only way 2 strokes will be able to survive the ever more demanding emissions requirements.

Thanks for the education professor.

But I was trying to make the point that it doesn't matter. Two strokes bikes are static technology (with one or two exceptions) that wil probably continue to dwindle in sales numbers. I doubt a new carb, oil injection, etc... will bring up the sales numbers of the big 4.

But... this could probably be a really good aftermarket add on to existing bikes since a smaller company wouldn't need to sell this huge numbers to be profitable.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This would have been a good argument in 1998. We might have been able to force 2 stroke technology by avoiding the yz 400. Its too late now.

Lets pretend someone does introduce the new super 2 stroke engine. How long would the AMA allow it to be dominate?

This is really what happened to the 2 stroke.

Honda has invested a lot of money in 4 stroke technology. All of the factories have been doing so for 10 years now. Why would they invest another ton of money to compete against themselves?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks for the education professor.

But I was trying to make the point that it doesn't matter. Two strokes bikes are static technology (with one or two exceptions) that wil probably continue to dwindle in sales numbers. I doubt a new carb, oil injection, etc... will bring up the sales numbers of the big 4.

But... this could probably be a really good aftermarket add on to existing bikes since a smaller company wouldn't need to sell this huge numbers to be profitable.

I guess I didn't get any of that from your first post. I read it more as oil injection bashing.

I agree with others here that direct injection probably will not save the 2 stroke. Too many people have been brainwashed into thinking a bike with double the displacement, 3 times the moving parts, and much greater weight is the superior way to go. Plus I don't see manufacturers throwing much money at 2 strokes to compete with their own 4 strokes.

Direct injection as an aftermarket add-on? I really don't see that happening. Extremely complicated to retrofit back onto something. I'm sure it can all be done, but the cost would be extremely prohibative.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing with direct injection is that, depending on the design used, they can basically super charge the engine. Which would add serious torque and HP along with EPA approved emissions. I know a lot of people who are going or have gone back to the smokers and will never again go back to $strokes. There seems to be a resurgence in the pinger market. And its also not just the US these manufactures are selling to. There are both countries with tighter and less strict emission regulations... I say the pinger will be alive for a while longer. And really they are not reinventing DI, all they have to do is convert and reprogram an ECU for it.

Evinrude has DI all they way down to a rope start 25 hp 2 cyl.

So if yami were to just borrow some technology from their O/B's then we may have some DI smokers! The only thing that would need to be changed would be head/piston design and oiling of the bottom end. They wouldnt need much of a change even to the stator/ign. system.

I have had some thoughts of trying an EFI system on my 125. Maybe if I could find a DI ECU I could work with, DI would be an option.:D:worthy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
also we should have them do oil injection

actually with DI its almost a must to have oil injection. But its different than traditional oil injection.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

... Too many people have been brainwashed into thinking a bike with double the displacement, 3 times the moving parts, and much greater weight is the superior way to go...

I don't think that too many people have been brainwashed. Some people actually like the powerband of the 4 strokes. I know I do. Its smoother and more controllable. It does come with a bit more weight. But that weight isn't unmanageable.

I would say that only a small percentage of people would be able to ride a 4 stroke faster than a 2 stroke. But the pro's are sometimes our example. They all ride four strokes. Most people will assume that 4 strokes are faster...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's funny you mention 1998 cause Bimota was going to wow the world with it's all new all thier own design motor v-twin 500 cc 2 stroke Direct Injected they was going to bring back the 500 2 stroke street bike market.

Unfortunately it never really made it out of the factory set backs in getting the direct injection to work it is known as the bike that bankrupted bimota.

I heard the direct injection model would run for like 30 mins then foul out the plugs most often you see carb versions or it's being hauled in a truck that's if you even see one. Yes you can buy a new one still today it will set ya back 20K easy.

Another point in the 80 and 90's japan and europe loved 2 strokes but in '98 japan basically outlawed 2 strokes much like the EPA did to us back in '85 for street use. There was still a strong market in the UK and Europe well guess what eviro nazi's are striking again.

example 125 street bikes are huge over there due to age n horse power learning laws. Instead of redesigning the NSR 125 honda opted for a CBR 125 yamaha gave up long before that but it got back into market with it's new YZF 125 both bikes are sohc liquid cooled fuel injected.

Yes you can get 250 v-twin's 2 strokes but you won't find anything new then 97 from a japanese brand and the aprilia RS 250 isn't all that new even though it says 2004 (last year it was made) the motor is the same as the suzuki RGV 250 which is early 90's tech.

Cagiva redisigned it's Mito 125 to be fuel injected and it yes has better emissions it passes euro 3 but it lost horsepower for what others have said. Aprilia hasn't really done anything to it's 125 nor has Derbi since '06 and that was mainly just a chassis n bodywork upgrades. Thier motors have been the same since the mid 90's basically.

Basically 2 stroke technology hasn't really gone anywhere in terms of bikes in like 10 years or more trust me my 2 stroke street bikes are more advanced then our dirtbikes.

The 2 stroke days in eurp/uk will be number cause in GP racing the 250 (all 2 strokes) will be replaced in another year with a 600 class hmmm can we say inline 4 and i'm sure the 125's are next honda is all ready trying to race a CRF based 250 against 125 2 strokes. RSF250R you can buy one for 20 grand real limited production.

Plus stated earlier they have invested in 4 strokes with a slow economy I don't think yamaha will take the gamble on lose R&D money's on a new 2 stroke now plus I believe that R&D cash is gone the last japan nationals a new 2nd gen style YZ250F motor was spotted.

honestly I haven't seen that many new YZ's at the track rarely do you see an '07 or 08 and i'm sure '09's will be just as rare. Yamaha makes claims we're still committed to 2 strokes maybe that should read (till all the spares are sold) basically we have the CR / KX / YZ 490/500's of the current era.

sorry that was kinda long...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0