this is getting good.... that might depend on which group you are in as decreed by Big Hal.. a newbie, the 30% who may be semi-competent, or the 70% who obviously are not... Grayracer Your talkin to these people on the forums here like they're a pro ASE tech such as yourself and I too am ASE Cert. But you must keep in mind what you say to most of these newbies here on th TT forums most of these folks cant repair the stuff in the correct manner ya know thus keeps the techs workin. or You cant have faith in everyone Gray 3 out of ten guys on these forums can do the stuff right! yeah 30% not very many. Shoot how many can fix a check engine light on their own car?