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swatdoc

oil tank from 250 on 450?

22 posts in this topic

Sorry if this is a really stupid question, but is it possible to add a 250f oil tank to the 450 (07) to increase capacity. If this isn't possible, I'm looking into a Jagg oil cooler. I'm converting an 07 450 to street legal supermoto and would just like the added protection of increased oil volume and cooler oil.

Thanks

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A 250F tank would be a little difficult to add to the system, but it could be a good starting point. I've thought of this myself before.

The return line on the 450 is routed through the ignition cover. You can see the passageway as it runs along the lower edge of the cover, then turns at right angles and runs up to near the dip stick, turns again and runs form the cover to the crankcase and into the tank at the dip stick hole. The outlet from the tank to the feed pump, of course, is internal.

My approach would be this:

Drill into the front of the oil reservoir in the front of the crankcase at near the level of the bottom of the tank, tap the hole and install a fitting. Connect this to the feed oil outlet fitting on the tank. Connect the vent port of the two tanks with a T fitting and attach the vent hose from the right engine cover to the third port of the T. Next, plug the top end of the return passage where it leaves the ignition cover. Remove the plug from the oil passage at the bottom front of the ignition cover and install a fitting. Connect a hose from this fitting to the return fitting of the new tank.

With the plumbing routed this way, the return oil will be sent to the new tank, flow from the new to the original reservoir through the port you added in front of the engine, and be drawn out of its current feed passage to the pump. Connecting the vents should allow it to level to two reservoirs out equally, but you may want to try to verify this.

Another thing to know is that the return pipe inside the 250F tank does not run all the way to the top. The reason for this has to do with the way the 250F backfills the crankcase after shutdown so the sight glass can be used. This will probably not affect the way the tank works while running, but it may allow quite a bit of the stored oil to run fairly quickly back to the crankcase, and the dipstick may not be very functional, depending on this, and how high the tank is mounted relative to the original oil supply. You could open the tank up and extend the tube, though.

Should end up with close to two quarts. Interesting idea, I think.

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use a small check valve in the line to prevent back flow and your problem will be gone, I believe. Several companies out there make these and you could google Clippard pnuematics (they make a little brass unit that would work great)

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I might try the Jagg oil cooler setup first, Gray, as it sounds much easier. Your way sounds workable, but cases would have to be split. I think Jagg modifies the oil filter cover and taps into that. Probably won't increase the volume as much as the 250 tank though.

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use a small check valve in the line to prevent back flow and your problem will be gone,
You're referring to the return line back flow?
I might try the Jagg oil cooler setup first, Gray, as it sounds much easier. Your way sounds workable, but cases would have to be split. I think Jagg modifies the oil filter cover and taps into that. Probably won't increase the volume as much as the 250 tank though.
The cases would not HAVE TO BE split, although it would certainly be safer. You could drill with the tank filled with oil, and the oil would wash the chips out rather than letting them fall in. The reservoir can be pretty thoroughly flushed in place, and you can even remove the oil pump and flush through that passageway as well.

Running the oil cooler off of the return makes more sense, since tapping it into the oil filter cover bleeds off feed oil, and the use of the return line would not.

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You're referring to the return line back flow?

Yes. if the issue is the fact that the return line would not be high enough to keep the majority of oil in the tank, a simple check valve would contain it for the most part since this is a return line and you are really not in need of the back flow other than to check level. This set-up would not allow for a acurate check of level with the dipstick anyway. Return oil if I am not mistaken is scavanged oil anyway, hence the use of twin oil pumps.

Correct?

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This set-up would not allow for a acurate check of level with the dipstick anyway. Return oil if I am not mistaken is scavanged oil anyway, hence the use of twin oil pumps.

Correct?

Not necessarily. What kind of oil would you say the oil the current dip stick measures is? Return oil is return (or scavenged) oil until it gets to the tank. Then, it's the oil supply. When the feed pump pulls it out, it's feed oil. All of that already happens. You'd simply have to determine what the new, revised dipstick reading should be.

Also, it's semantics, but while there are two pumps, they aren't twins, or dual pumps. The return pump rotors are over twice as thick, so that the volume of that pump will always exceed that of the feed pump. This ensures that the crankcase is always scavenged at a rate faster than it fills.

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Sorry, I just read the post again. My bad I had "04" on the brain not "07" so in this instance it would not work. That will teach me to do one thing at a time.

As for twin vs dual, that is kind of splitting hairs is it not? Then that depends on the definition you wish to use of each word, considiring there are about 32 different definitions for twin alone.....

But I must pull my foot out of my mouth regarding the scavanged oil and supply oil in the case of the "07" and how it would have to be set up for an extra tank..... My bad.

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Sorry, I just read the post again. My bad I had "04" on the brain not "07" so in this instance it would not work. That will teach me to do one thing at a time.
I missed it...what did you suggest that wouldn't work? The check valve? I think I see where you're coming from; if you thought the tank was being added to an '04, then you probably had no idea why I was suggesting running return oil to the lower of the two tanks. Your confusion was well founded, since that would have been a kind of strange (dumb?) approach to take. If I were doing that (and I've thought about it), I'd leave the return line alone, and simply put a tank behind the skid plate and run feed oil from the frame to the new tank and the out to the engine, with a vent running up to the steering head to make it bleed itself. Then the check valve wouldn't be needed. If you thought I was talking about an '04 before, then you'd be right to call it weird.

The difference with an '06-7 is that a tank added in front of the engine would be at about the same level as the rest of the oil supply. Changes the whole concept.

As for twin vs dual, that is kind of splitting hairs is it not? Then that depends on the definition you wish to use of each word, considiring there are about 32 different definitions for twin alone.....
I told you it was semantics. :ride:
But I must pull my foot out of my mouth
I keep a small supply of condiments handy because my shoes taste bland without them. :ride:

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I missed it...what did you suggest that wouldn't work? The check valve? I think I see where you're coming from; if you thought the tank was being added to an '04, then you probably had no idea why I was suggesting running return oil to the lower of the two tanks. Your confusion was well founded, since that would have been a kind of strange (dumb?) approach to take. If I were doing that (and I've thought about it), I'd leave the return line alone, and simply put a tank behind the skid plate and run feed oil from the frame to the new tank and the out to the engine, with a vent running up to the steering head to make it bleed itself. Then the check valve wouldn't be needed. If you thought I was talking about an '04 before, then you'd be right to call it weird.

The difference with an '06-7 is that a tank added in front of the engine would be at about the same level as the rest of the oil supply. Changes the whole concept.

I told you it was semantics. :ride:

I keep a small supply of condiments handy because my shoes taste bland without them. :ride:

Yep to all of the above:thumbsup:

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Talked to Joe at Motostrano today about the Jagg oil cooler. Turns out it is listed as being for the 00-05 450's, so it might not even work for the 07 bikes. Crap. He's gonna call Jagg to make sure.

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Looks like my problem will be solved soon. PWR is coming out with a stage 3 cooling kit for the YZ's. This is what the MDK guys run on Villumien and Wey's bikes.

http://www.pwr-performance.com/motox.htm#1

so do you think it would be a lot better if I modd the oil filter cover? with like a bypass to the tank then return to the filter

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Ya know, Tweav, I've only seen exterior shots of the oil filter cover on the Factory Yamahas, and since the PWR kit is still a few weeks away, I haven't seen that one either. So I don't really know how complicated that new cover is or isn't. If you don't mind waiting a bit - I'll definitely be getting the PWR kit, and I can examine it closely and take some pics so we can see if it's even feasable to do a mod to the stock cover. Did you see the Motocross Action from about 3 months ago with the arcticle on the factory bikes? it had a good pic of Langston's bike with the oil cooler setup. They were using the oil cover pump made by Pro Circuit. (I already called PC, and they will NOT be offering this to the public)

Check it out on the 2nd pic down on this page:

http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=589833&page=2

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so do you think it would be a lot better if I modd the oil filter cover? with like a bypass to the tank then return to the filter
You need to understand what you're doing when you mod the cover. Putting in a bypass "short circuits" the feed oil back to the tank before it goes anywhere, and unless you feed the cooler in that case through a control orifice that will restrict the oil flow enough to keep the pressure up in the feed circuit. But doing that will cut down the flow to the cooler.

The right way to do the cooler on the feed side is this:

First, the passages running from the center of the cover to the two feed passages have to be blocked. Then a hole must be drilled at the center of the cover and a fitting installed. This goes to the cooler inlet, carrying filtered oil. Now, you need a second and third fitting, one at each of the two oilways leading into the engine. These have to come from the cooler outlet, and it's where the custom cover makes things so much neater; it has a passage in it that connects the two oilways from a single fitting.

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I bought the stage 3 oil cooler setup from PWR. in the process of installing it. bummer is that i had to ditch my FMF mega bomb header to clear the oil pump fittings.

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I bought the stage 3 oil cooler setup from PWR. in the process of installing it. bummer is that i had to ditch my FMF mega bomb header to clear the oil pump fittings.

Can you post up some picture of the install process?

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And Swat can you also update us on your fan install? I have a Spal puller fan on my sxf and it works great so maybe I'll hook one up using your toggle switch idea to conserve power. won't need a thermo switch.

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