more electrical questions

[pip_daddy]

I think that I am going to upgrade my stator. I just want to have all my ducks in a row before I start ordering parts. Has anyone had any luck (good or bad) with the electrex stator from Rocky Mountain ATV? And if so, do I need to get the electrex voltage regulator to go with it? I will be running this on a 2000 xr650r with a Baja Designs dual sport kit. My goal is to be able to run a 55/60w bulb. As of right now, I also have a GPS hardwired into the charging system. I think that this is as far as I will go as far as power requirements.

Thanks in advance,

Eric

[AzMtnThumper]

Don't have any experience with Electrex (seems kinda expensive compared to Baja Designs). If you are going to keep your GPS hardwired I think you will need not only the heavy duty regualtor but a regulator with a rectifier (or a seperate rectifier of some sort - I'm guessing you are running a battery now with the BD dual sport kit) to get DC voltage.

[snaggleXR650]

Hello,

I, like many others rewound my own stator. I didn't care for the hassle of the dual coil setup that aftermarket stators or Baja Designs offered. It's also half the price and a good learning experience.

Your setup seems to be pretty simple, with minimal electrical load. See this page for referrence, but I'm going to change the wind a bit for the better;

http://www.xr650r.us/stator/

Buy your 18awg magnet wire here;

http://www.bulkwire.com/product.asp?ProdID=7606

Get your 5 min. Devcon epoxy at Lowe's, Walmart automotive, autoparts etc... You want high heat resistance (get the highest you can find) and water resistance. Other than that anything will work.

Coil output is a tradeoff of induced voltage (numer of turns), current carrying capacity (guage of wire) and coil resistance (length of wire). The stock wind is 22awg magnet wire, over 4 poles, 75 turns/pole, total 300 turns. If you duplicate the stock wind setup, except with larger wire, the results are excellent. This is why it's not so good to add more wire to the stock coil (as seen in the above link). The wire length is long, so resistance is higher, limiting output.

In your case a full wind of 18awg will be perfect, and has been estimated to put out a good 125W+. First you will have to remove the stock lighting coil, the 4 poles, giving us a total of 10 poles to wind. DO NOT REMOVE THE IGNITION COIL, we won't change this part. Using 18awg magnet wire, you need to wind 32 turns per pole on all ten poles, giving a total of ~320 turns. Remember stock was 300, we don't want to stray from this number too far (wire length = more coil resistance, but more turns = more power), but a little bit is ok for good measure. Alternate each pole winding direction and you are set.

The coil resistance should be in the .2-.6 Ohm range. Test it in your bike if you like, when all is good, use some Devcon or similar 5 minute epoxy and coat all the wires you just wound, let it dry and enjoy the lights!

If you want a DC system, and/or charge a battery, you will need a regulator/rectifier unit (replaces the stock regulator). These are available at Baja Designs and Ricky Stator. They have 2 yellow wires on the regulator side and a black and red on the rectifier side. The two ends of you new lighting coil will go straight up to these 2 yellow wires. This regulates the lighting coil, keeping it's voltage output clamped down to about 14VAC. You can run your headlights on this regulated AC voltage by simply branching the headlight into this circuit. The black/red wires are your DC voltage. It's still a bit dirty from the rectification, so smooth it out with a capacitor or a battery pack. As long as your voltage remains above 12 the battery will stay charged and will provide nice clean 12VDC for any equipment you have.

If you don't need/want a DC system, then simply use the stock regulator as wired and included with the bike.

If you need wiring schematics or more detailed information, contact me directly. Good luck.

[Mudshark]

snaggleXR650,

Excellent post ??

Thanks, youve convinced me to try it.

[rmhrc630]

snaggleXR650,

Excellent post ??

Thanks, youve convinced me to try it.

mate snaggle is the guru in bike electrics

his posts are always excellent

[pip_daddy]

thanks snaggle, I am sure that I will be PMing you at some point in time. I will have to agree, I think that you are the man when it comes to electronics.

Eric

[snaggleXR650]

Feel free to ask, I might can help with schematics if you need. Actually, 6 months ago, I was asking some of the same questions. I started reasearching heavily the older posts at the 650R Yahoo group and ended up getting some specific help from a couple of the more knowledgeable members. I'm no genius, I just knew where to go for help.

[ccrider1960]

I'm about to do this and would like to see a schematic if possible - pls send .

Obviously buget is an issue , else I'd just order a Tecate system. (I have a 2003 XR650R.)

Also, I am a bit confused on the 'floating gnd', somewhere in the gazillion links I read last night till 1am said if you need DC to float the gnd....

PLAN 1 : AC Headlight + AC Halogen helmet light - Wind the whole thing up as a single (remove the stk 4 poles, then wire all ten as mentioned), and tap off the headlight to fire some 12AC Headlight + DC Helmet HIDS - Until reading the floating gnd thing I was thinking wind the whole thing up as a single (remove the stk 4 poles, then wire all ten as mentioned), and tap off the headlight into some DC rectifier to fire some helmet HIDs that I would go out and get on my own. 12VAC helmet HALOGENS that I would go out and get on my own.

PLAN 2: AC Headlight + DC Helmet HIDS - Until reading the floating gnd thing I was thinking wind the whole thing up as a single (remove the stk 4 poles, then wire all ten as mentioned), and tap off the headlight into some DC rectifier to fire some helmet HIDs that I would go out and get on my own.

PLAN 3: Wind a AC and DC (floating gnd) on the stator? Not sure if this is an option?

Question 1: Does an '03 xr650R have a DC circuit already? (is there a good schematic of this stock system? I've seen the manual and it seems to show and XL version and does not clearly show the rectifier from what I remember at 1 am. IF YES, can you run a HID from this and what wires would I connect to? Secondly, If yes but can't run a HID, is there an off the shelf replacement recommended?

Question 2: are the stock harnesses (stator , and plug at bike seat to headlight) capable of handling the xtra juice from the stator rewind?

[SniperTeamBravo]

I have a question, first a statement, Baja and Ricky stators told me streight up if I have a dual sport kit, meaning, running a regulator/rectifire and a battery I need to go dual output and use one of the single outputs thru a AC regulator to my headlight, and the other of the dual outputs to the Rec/reg-battery to run everything else because in a single mode IE:210w plus output the current will frag the reg/rec because it'll run it too hot. I guess Ill be going it in dual mode with over 110w directly to the headlights (two) and the other to my Baja system.

[snaggleXR650]

Sniper,

They are pretty much correct. The standard Tympanium reg/rec's are rated at ~150W. What they didn't tell you is that the reg/rec burns off *only* what you don't use. For example, if you ran a 35W headlight only and little else and used a 200W+ stator, the reg/rec would almost melt. Now, on the other hand, if you are using 110W for a headlight and other misc. loads, you are using up the power, so the reg/rec is fine.

I know this is true because I'm doing it myself. I've got a standard Baja DSK, battery and reg/rec. I'm running a stator that I rewound, 16awg X 10 poles (32 turns/pole, 320 total turns +/-). This is estimated to be *at least* 200W if not more. I'm running dual 55W headlights (110W, damn near full bright at idle, definitely full bright right above idle speed) as well as a full DSK. My reg/rec never gets above ambient temperature.

The catch is that I can't turn off my headlights, they are on ALL the time, both of them. If I did turn them off, that extra 110W would be dumped in the reg/rec causing it to get REAL hot and possibly fail.

Furthermore, when running 100W+ lighting, you are pulling close to or more than 10 amps. What you have to watch here is the dinky little wiring that the stock bike and DSK uses. I ran 14awg wiring directly from the stator up to the regulator side of the reg/rec and the headlight (I could have used 16 and probably 18awg, but I like overkill).

I knew the battery wouldn't last trying to power the 110W headlights, not to mention the rectifier, so I wired the headlights AC, basically in series with the regulator (yellow wires) so I have regulated AC voltage to my headlights. Everything else just runs through the reg/rec and battery just like it did with my stock stator.

Now, if I'm riding along and both of my headlights blow out, I'm going to have an overheating/melting problem with my reg/rec, so I didn't really do it the *right way*.

Ricky Stator sells a 250W heavy duty regulator (not a combined regulator/rectifier like the Baja Designs unit, though he does have these too). This is more than enough for high powered systems. For a rectifier (for converting to DC, and charging a battery), buy a "Full wave bridge rectifier" from an electronics supply place, like Digi Key or Mouser. These are VERY cheap and can be had up to 25-30 Amps. A bridge rectifier + heavy duty regulator = heavy duty reg/rec. Using this setup, I could easily turn off my 110W headlights and the regulator and rectifier would EASILY handle the load. They might get warm, but they won't melt as we are only talking 10-15A under extreme conditions. This is the *right way* to do the high powered systems. I'll be redoing mine someday soon, I'm just lazy. However, this is the safe and smart way to do it.

CCrider,

The stator is putting out AC voltage relative to the RPM of the motor, no matter how it's wired. The stock XR650R is AC only. To create DC voltage, you run the stator output through a regulator/rectifier unit (the stock unit is only a regulator, the Baja Designs kit uses a reg/rec combined into one). The output of the reg/rec is *dirty* DC voltage. Running this through a battery pack or a capacitor will smooth it out to get good smooth DC, required for running GPS's and stuff.

To hook your headlight up for AC voltage, simply wire it in between the stator and the regulator side of the reg/rec unit (two yellow wires typically). This gives regulated AC voltage to the headlights. However, the stator output is still going into the rectifier, so whatever you hook up on the black and red wires (rectifier side) is DC voltage.

With a dual coil stator, like Baja Designs does, or Ricky Stator, you would have to run the stock regulator to the headlight (regulated AC) and then run another regulator/rectifier unit for DC stuff on the second coil. YOU MUST HAVE A REGULATOR FOR EACH COIL. Obviously, you are using two regulators instead of one. You have tons of wiring and limited space to hold all the stuff. A single winding is ideal. The trick is to only wind for what you need.

As mentioned previously, an 18awg winding, 10 poles, 32 wraps per pole, total of 320 wraps is good for a DSK and 55/60W headlight. If you want 100W+ of lighting, you need to step up to the 16awg winding, 10 poles, 32 wraps per pole, total 320. However, one must be VERY careful with the 16awg winding (or any 200W+ stator) as the wiring, and any switches will have to be upgraded to handle the higher current. Furthermore, if using a standard 150W reg/rec, one must make certain that the majority of the output is used for lighting. If you aren't using the juice in your lights, the reg/rec has to burn it off and can easily be overloaded with ~150W.

Clear as mud?

Here is a pic of my headlights at idle;

http://members.cox.net/snaggletto/XR650R-SM%20lights

Here is a simple schematic of how my AC headlights are wired, the rest of my DSK is powered normally with the battery and such, IE. DC voltage.

http://members.cox.net/snaggletto/super%20stator%20schematic_revision2.BMP

[Jon-D]

perhaps I missed this, but is the procedure the same for XR 600's?

[snaggleXR650]

The stators on the XR600, XR400, XR250 and XR650R are all basically the same. They all look the same anyway, but my specific experience is with the 650R.

[ccrider1960]

I can not find the DEVCON epoxy anywhere, does anyone know where it is. I see McMaster lists 3 diff types but I have no clue which one or if it matters?

Also, the blue wire going to the Headlight looks really small. If one ups the stator by doing the 10 poles at 30 turns of 18awg, does one then need to upgrade the frame harness?? I have not seen anyone say this in any post.

[Beyond The Pale]

You should be OK with the stock wire, unless you plan on going over 10 amps (120W). I think doing one winding on all 10 poles is overkill. The current is limited by the size of the wire and the strength of the magnets. All 10 poles in one winding will give you better voltage at idle, but less watts at higher RP Ms. I think that's why the commercial kits do two windings. Enough voltage at idle, but more total watts available.

I have a commercial stator (BD) with two 125 watt windings on my XR600. One runs a 90/100W headlight in AC mode and the other runs everything else on DC with a battery. I run a small extra headlight from the battery, because if the engine quits, it gets real dark real quick with only the AC headlight.

My ignition exciter coil went out, and I rewound it. I couldn't find DEVCON either. I used the 30 minute JB weld and it's been working for the last 2 years.

Some info on stator rewinding http://www.crustyquinns.com/tech/stator.html

[snaggleXR650]

CCrider,

You can find Devcon, or equivalent epoxies at Lowe's, Home Depot, Wal Mart, Ace Hardware, or any auto parts store. Look for water resistant, high temperature, and ~5 min curing time.

With the 18awg wind and a 55W headlight the stock wiring will be fine. Only consider upgrading the wiring when you are driving 100W+ of lighting.

Cleonard,

The stock winding is 22awg? 75 turns per pole, over 4 poles. This gives a total of 300 turns. Induced voltage is a function of the number of turns in a coil (more turns, more voltage), the length of wire in a coil (longer = more resistance = bad), and wire guage (bigger = less resistance = good).

There is obviously a tradeoff on all these conditions of a coil, electrically and physically as in what will actually fit back into the stator cover. The trick is to get the desired amount of turns (300-340), creating the proper amount of induced voltage, while keeping the wire used in the coil as short as possible (minimizing internal resistance), and using the largest guage wire physically possible (bigger wire = more current carrying capacity).

Doing the 18awg winding, 32 turns per pole over all 10 poles is for convienience only, it's easy to wind. You could easily wind it using 8 poles and 40 turns per pole. Or you could do as Baja Designs does and cram it into 5 poles and then hack/grind out your stator cover so it will fit. Alot of people that simply want to upgrade to a 55/60W headlight don't need the dual winding that Baja Designs and Ricky stator offer. In this case, the Baja/Ricky rewind is overkill, as the second coil isn't utilized or under utilized. Unfortunately, this dual winding is all that either of them offer.

The purpose of the 18awg winding, 320 turns over 10 poles and high power 16awg winding, 320 turns over 10 poles is to give a single coil with the minimum possible internal resistance. This allows maximum voltage output and maximum current carrying capacity. The end result is an easy to wire single coil that is very efficient and gives great output at idle and beyond. Beyond all that, the single winding only needs one regulator or regulator/rectifier, and makes for a much simpler and smaller wiring system.

To each his own. If the Baja/Ricky stators work for you, then great. There are certainly some circumstances where the dual coils may be of some benefit. I just offer this info for those that would like more power with the simplicity of a single coil. Ride on!

[Beyond The Pale]

I tried all those places including 5 different auto parts stores and couldn't find Devcon anywhere. Maybe it's an east coast vs west coast thing. I was rewinding my ignition coil and I wanted to ride, not wait for mail order, so I used JB weld. It was the best I could find at the time, and has been fine so far. If you have the time, mail order some devcon. It has lower viscosity and is better suited for the job.

[snaggleXR650]

Hey, It doesn't have to be Devcon, there are others, that's just a common brand. The purpose is to make a hard shell around the windings, this way the windings won't try to unwind themselves. Anything should work, but I would make sure it's something you can take back off if you want to rewind again for some reason. Good luck.