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XR-Det

Opinion - 2 or 4 Stroke?

26 posts in this topic

I saw that most of you guys own another bike besides your XR650 and I was thinking to get something smaller to play around with. Just I can’t make up my mind what I should get. I thought about something in the 250cc range.

Since I am a fairly light guy the 650 is too heavy for me to really have some fun in the dirt and I maybe would like to try some jumping too (before I get too old) :cry:

Is there a big difference between a CRF or CR250 power wise and even a different brand?

And: I don’t want to get rid of my XRL or replace it :cry: especially since it is street legal. I am keeping that one for sure.

Thanks for any ideas or tips :cry:

Det

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I miss my old 2-strokes, loved the way they ripped, ... but, I think its the modern-day dinosaur ... seems like everybody is trying to rid the planet of them, ... 2-strokes are blamed for everything from global warming to hemorroids ... theyre a ball to ride, but don't fall in love with them, they're on their way out ... IMHO ... :cry:

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Hehehe, is it really that extreme in order not to buy a (used) 2 stroke anymore? I am sure there are more cubic centimeters 2-strokes out there in weed trimmers, lawn equipment, or PWCs than in dirt bikes.

Or is that mainly in California??

Det

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Hehehe, is it really that extreme in order not to buy a (used) 2 stroke anymore? I am sure there are more cubic centimeters 2-strokes out there in weed trimmers, lawn equipment, or PWCs than in dirt bikes.

Or is that mainly in California??

Det

It's a 4-stroke revolution not limited to motorcycles. I wouldn't touch a 2 stroke.

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I couldn't stay away and bought a CR250 last year to play with. It's been great having a modern 2 stroke to play with, although I still have some older Yamaha and Husky 2 strokes, but they're kind of moth-balled right now. Get some time on a CR250 or YZ250, etc, before buying one because it's a completely different experience than a CRF250. The powerbands are different and they each has their own advantages. I miss my CR500's and loved the crazy wheel spinning power. If it wasn't for the CA green sticker laws a few years back, I probably would have bought a CR500AF instead of my XR650R, but it's nice to be back on a big thumper. It's even nicer to have both worlds (2 & 4 stroke) :cry: You can get some killer deals on used CR250's and they're very relaible. 2000 and 2001 CR250 engines run strong from the bottom up. 2002 CR250's feature a new gen frame, twin chamber showa forks, better handling, etc, but Honda introduced a new case reed system that makes the bike feel weak on the low end, but it pulls very strong from mid range on up. From what I gather, the ideal CR250 would be a 2002 bike with a 2000 engine. Another good combo I've heard of is a 2002 CR250 with Eric Gore's Mo Betta porting, a heavier flywheel and the PWK AirStryker carb that was featured on the 2000 CR250. From what I've heard, this minimizes stalling on trails, brings back a significant amount of low end power and strengthens everything else on up and it runs on pump gas. You can get the carb brand new from Service Honda for ~$160 and the porting doesn't cost much more. As far as cost of ownership goes, the CR250 will be significantly less expensive to maintain than the CRF250.

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Hi zx7rye

I totaly agree that a 4 stroke is cleaner and more enviromental fiendly as any 2-stroke but on the other hand does my 20 year old XRL 4-stroke design not feel like riding a revolution.

That's why I was asking if a 4-stroke today doesn't make a difference performance wise compared to the same size 2-stroke.

Back then when I had my 80cc 2-stroke with 16, there was no way you could get something like that performance out of the same size 4 stroke.

Det

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Hi zx7rye

I totaly agree that a 4 stroke is cleaner and more enviromental fiendly as any 2-stroke but on the other hand does my 20 year old XRL 4-stroke design not feel like riding a revolution.

That's why I was asking if a 4-stroke today doesn't make a difference performance wise compared to the same size 2-stroke.

Back then when I had my 80cc 2-stroke with 16, there was no way you could get something like that performance out of the same size 4 stroke.

Det

You're still correct. The modern 4 strokes compete with 2 strokes half their displacment. CRF450 vs. CR250.

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Hello qadsan,

thanks for your great advise, I think just looking at the offers for used 250th I am forced to go two stroke. Either way no one wants to sell a CRF or they are to expensive :cry:

If I check cycletrader there is 1 CRF against 60 CRs in the range up to $2k (thats what I thought I want to spend) and my local paper version has about the same ratio.

Hi ghoti,

thats what I thought it would be. Maybe I need to start physicaly look at some models and test ride them to get a feel for it and what I want or to figure out how it evolved.

again thanks for your tips!!

Det

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I couldn't stay away and bought a CR250 last year to play with. It's been great having a modern 2 stroke to play with, although I still have some older Yamaha and Husky 2 strokes, but they're kind of moth-balled right now. Get some time on a CR250 or YZ250, etc, before buying one because it's a completely different experience than a CRF250. The powerbands are different and they each has their own advantages. I miss my CR500's and loved the crazy wheel spinning power. If it wasn't for the CA green sticker laws a few years back, I probably would have bought a CR500AF instead of my XR650R, but it's nice to be back on a big thumper. It's even nicer to have both worlds (2 & 4 stroke) :cry: You can get some killer deals on used CR250's and they're very relaible. 2000 and 2001 CR250 engines run strong from the bottom up. 2002 CR250's feature a new gen frame, twin chamber showa forks, better handling, etc, but Honda introduced a new case reed system that makes the bike feel weak on the low end, but it pulls very strong from mid range on up. From what I gather, the ideal CR250 would be a 2002 bike with a 2000 engine. Another good combo I've heard of is a 2002 CR250 with Eric Gore's Mo Betta porting, a heavier flywheel and the PWK AirStryker carb that was featured on the 2000 CR250. From what I've heard, this minimizes stalling on trails, brings back a significant amount of low end power and strengthens everything else on up and it runs on pump gas. You can get the carb brand new from Service Honda for ~$160 and the porting doesn't cost much more. As far as cost of ownership goes, the CR250 will be significantly less expensive to maintain than the CRF250.

The 2004 CR500AF is California Green Sticker Legal

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A major reason I ride four strokes is that I grew up on them...learned to ride using their power delivery and bike balance (though the old SLs and XLs didn't exactly have any "balance"...........neither did I, so it was OK).

Another major reason is that what two strokes I did have were oil pumpers. I never had to do premix until I acquired an IT465, and the whole premix process was a pain in the a**....two gas cans, mix it, shake it, lose precious garage space to another set of oil supply cans, etc...but, of course, only because I didn't have to do all that for the bikes I rode growing up.

Try finding a two stroke with oil injection today...seems like they disappeared off the planet when the two stroke was booted off the roads in the early 70s.

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Hi zx7rye

I totaly agree that a 4 stroke is cleaner and more enviromental fiendly as any 2-stroke but on the other hand does my 20 year old XRL 4-stroke design not feel like riding a revolution.

That's why I was asking if a 4-stroke today doesn't make a difference performance wise compared to the same size 2-stroke.

Back then when I had my 80cc 2-stroke with 16, there was no way you could get something like that performance out of the same size 4 stroke.

Det

I'll never fall into a debate over sheer performance. 2 strokes, albeit having a completely different engine design, do have major performance advantages (comparisons based on displacement are apples and oranges). My comment was more of a forward looking comment...mostly environmental reasons. It would be a shame to buy one with looming legislation that would prevent you from riding one. Governments are clamping down on emissions and it's gonna get worse. But this is just my opinion, and I tend to hang onto bikes for a while so it is a bigger consideration for me. :cry:

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My friend has a dual-sported XR650R for trail riding and a CR250 for racing. It is a good day and night combination. In a race, I would think the buzziness would matter as much as you're flogging the bike to get ahead.

The YZ250 or YZ250F are other options for off-roading. You'll find good used ones for less money.

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I'll never fall into a debate over sheer performance. 2 strokes, albeit having a completely different engine design, do have major performance advantages (comparisons based on displacement are apples and oranges). My comment was more of a forward looking comment...mostly environmental reasons. It would be a shame to buy one with looming legislation that would prevent you from riding one. Governments are clamping down on emissions and it's gonna get worse. But this is just my opinion, and I tend to hang onto bikes for a while so it is a bigger consideration for me. :cry:

The old 2 smokes will be grandfathered in and left to die a slow painful death.

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Did someone mention the ubiquitous fleets of two stroke weed wackers which exist?

California has regulated the emissions from two stroke engines since, oh, about 1990, and breaks them out into two emission categories by a 65cc threshold. I trust EPA won't be/isn't far behind.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/sore/sore.htm

Better learn to ride fourstrokes.....

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I guess I hit a sore spot asking a 2stroke question on a 4stroke forum? :cry:

Correct me if I am wrong, all those regulations and testing requirements by EPA or the California ARB are supposed to be for manufacturers. And I believe that is absolut needed to force them to come up with better ways to reduce the polution. Otherwise I am sure they would go the opposite way and easier to get more performance with more and more polution.

But the consumer? Whats today still for sale in the store can't be completely forbidden tomorrow? Just reading a 2004 CR500AF is California ARB approved means the manufacturer met current regulations and its approved to buy by the government.

If those type bikes are that bad then in my opinion to phase out something like a two stroke the rules would need to get a little bit more strict than that and would need to reduce sales of new motorcycles. For example a decreasing size limit and more strict emission so it gets less attractive for manufacturers to stick to the two stroke and develop other engines.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to promote 2 strokes here as I said earlier but I think some of you are maybe a little too negative? :cry:

Maybe I should refrase my question :cry: I am sure no MX racer, I do it just for the fun part and don't intent to join any events:

If I am riding now a XR650L would I be disappointed with a KXF/YZF/CRF250 or does the weight difference make up for quiet a bit? I am not heavy either!! (hey, thats now a pure 4 stroke question)

Thanks for all your input

Detlef

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If you are looking for a modern four stroke the only brand you can consider is yamaha. That is because you can pick them up for cheaper because the were producing them for more years. You could get a yz250f ('01-'02) for around 2k. If you want arm ripping power you could look at the yz400f and yz426's. They would still be quite a bit lighter.

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Did someone mention the ubiquitous fleets of two stroke weed wackers which exist?

California has regulated the emissions from two stroke engines since, oh, about 1990, and breaks them out into two emission categories by a 65cc threshold. I trust EPA won't be/isn't far behind.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/regact/sore/sore.htm

Better learn to ride fourstrokes.....

Here is Stihls new 4-Mix hybrid:

http://www.popsci.com/popsci/bown/2003/article/0,18881,537079,00.html

5% more horsepower and 17% more torque with only a few ounces more weight. If there is a rule the manufacturer comes up with a way to match it.

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XR-Det;

I for one am not trying to sound negative towards two strokes....we are all motorcyclists here...

I am just as irritated at the EPA/CARB thumbscrews as anyone. What doesn't come through in my written answers is the decades of irriation at regulatory bodies taking away my choices in motorcycles and my riding areas. Regardless of whether I choose to ride a two or four stroke, I value us having the choice.

You are right..the regs are technology forcing, as are many of Cal's env regs.

To answer your question, I suspect that you will not be disappointed with a 250 MX two stroke, as the power to weight ratio is probably just a bit :cry: higher with the MX machine. I would imagine that the 250 would feel like a featherweight after the 650, and the power delivery more explosive.

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Detlef, no you won't be disappointed with a CRF 250 if you used to get what you wanted out of a 125cc 2-smoke. I've seen a few comparisons with 250 2-strokes and 250 4-strokers, and I've only seen one mention of these being incomparable. If you want apples to apples, compare a 450 4-stroker to the 250 2-smoke for a "250cc class bike." Granted they are different bikes, but there are similarities as well, e.g. less shifting, more power, and a little heavier than they're "125 class" 2-stroke and 4-stroke counterparts...I agree with YZ rider above, go Blue and get the YZ450F...or, just pick you're favorite color. Regardless, you'll like the crossover with your XRL. :cry:

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IJust reading a 2004 CR500AF is California ARB approved means the manufacturer met current regulations and its approved to buy by the government.

The 500AF may have been approved based on comparatively low projected sales. There arent a truckload of CR500s, but there are even fewer AFs.

I say get a 5-10 year old CR250. That way it'll be cheap and still perform and have replacement parts available. I miss my '92 CR250, but for the type of riding I do, I dont think either a two or four stoke MX bike would be ideal. Thats why I have a bike that can chug along a trail or bomb along open desert. IMO a 4 stroke MXer is like a 2-stroke, only a little heavier and with the same maintainence intervals......on alot more parts.

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