new motor & oil is not registering on dipstick???

[Rancher]

I just bought a '00 426 with a locked up motor. I put a new top and bottom end, new head, valves, valve seals, cams and timing chain. Everything is new. Now the bike starts and runs great, but oil will not register on the dipstick. I measure with my ratio rite cup exactly 1.75 quarts with a new filter and there is no oil on the dipstick. I even put 3 quarts of oil in the bike just to see if it would register and nothing. FYI...The bike will not start with 3 quarts of oil. I can run the bike arround the yard for 10 min and shut it off...let it sit for 5 min and there is nothing on the dipstick. I am stuck. Has anyone ever heard of this?

[John_Lorenz]

It sounds as though the oil is not pumping through the ingine. Have you checked to see if the oil is flowing properly ?

To do this, the oil leed to the head just above the kick starter or the header can be loosened slightly to see if oil is properly being pumped through the engine.

If its not then you better get it fixed other wise you will be replacing the top end real quick

[Mark_Cantrell]

There are two pumps. A scavenge pump in the crankcase that keeps the oil pumped up to the frame reservoir and a regular pump that takes its input from the reservoir and lubes the motor. It isn't clear what the problem is but I would disconnect both of the lines going from the crank up to the frame, kick it through with the comp release 20 or 30 times and see if oil is going up to the reservoir.

Good luck,

mwc

[John_Lorenz]

I was going to add but got distracted, follow the oil path i.e. lines and so on, make sure nothing is bent or pinched to restrict oil flow if you see a issue as Marc Describes none flow of oil

Sorry

Marc makes a good point ,, dont run the motor until you find the problem, Kicking it through will push the oil through the lines

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

[Boit]

Very odd indeed. Have you checked to make sure that oil is being pumped through the system by lossening the galley bolt behind the head as per the the manual like EGO mentioned? Also, are you certain that the dipstick is the correct one? The metallic part of the stick should measure 7 inches. I went out to the gararage and checked the oil on my '00 that hasn't been started in a couple of days. It didn't measure on the dipstick either, but I put 1700cc's of oil at each change. I kicked it over about 20 times and it registered nearly full. At 3 quarts in your bike, you should be able to get a reading with a cold engine. That's almost double the amount of oil compared to normal. It sounds like the secondary pump is not pumping oil to the head as per Mark. Very strange and extremely worrisome.

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Boit ]

[sirthumpalot]

I agree with Mark, check the scavenge pump operation. If you remove the return oil line (top side on left) from the frame and kick it over you should get oil being pumped out. And DO NOT run the motor until you find the problem!

[acarter920]

Have you checked to see if the drain bolt in the bottom of the engine is there?

Cuz if there's a puddle of oil under your bike, I think that'd be the culprit. ?

In seriousness, I agree with these guys... DO NOT run the motor until you figure out what's wrong. If there's no oil getting pumped through the frame, chances are there's no oil lubricating all those metal-on-metal parts in the head. That's an expensive bill to have to pay twice.

[John_Lorenz]

Rancher Wrote

I just bought a '00 426 with a locked up motor.

Hummmmmmmmmmm Ya thinking what Im thnking, this should not be a hard case to crack

Oil Pump BAD

[Jason_in_KC]

Here's the gig fellers, Nate(Rancher) and I worked on this scoot trying to figure out why no oil would register. After speaking w/KCHusky we did check both oil lines, at the head to make sure the top end is being lubricated and the return line up the side of the frame, one kick and we were cleaning up oil. The best diagnosis is there may be a flap or something in the oil pump that was not put back in, that when the bike is shut down allows the bottem end to hold "x" amount of oil, while the frame holds the other amounts. When pouring the oil in the frame, it actually sounds like it is running all the way to the bottom end..warm engine or cold, 1.75 quarts or 3..nothing showing on the dipstick. Again, the tests have concluded that the engine is being lubricated properly but just can't figure why all of the oil storage keeps staying in the bottom end, once the bike is shut off?

This poor engine grenaded itself and took some valves, the spark plug and various other parts. Nate has practically put a new engine in it w/new factory parts. We ran the bike for about 10mins of run time and pulled the oil filter to find it nearly clogged w/debris and flecks.That was cleaned and a few oil changes later it was much cleaner in the oil filter area.

Hopefully this detail will assist with figuring out why we cannot get the oil to register on the dipstick.

[sirthumpalot]

It's not normal for the oil to run into the cases as quickly as you describe. I personally think it's worth the time to disassemble and check the pumps very carefully. The engine died once, did you ever find out the exact cause? I would get the manual and inspect and measure all of the pump parts to be sure everything is OK and in spec.

[Rancher]

Do you think if the strainer in the oil pump is clogged with pieces of metal that it could cause this problem? From the parts breakdown it looks like the strainer is just before the oil return line going back to the frame. It just doesn't make sense. When I disconnect the oil return line from the frame and kick the bike over...after two kicks I am cleaning up oil off the floor.

Any other suggestions?

Thanks,

Nate

[John_Lorenz]

The Strainer is below the oil and therefor is the feed to the engine. The Oil return is ontop of the oil tank under the triples on the clutch side. Chk ther to validate if oil is making it that far...

In all practice one should work from reverse in a problem like this.

Meaning start at the end of the oil run back wards

If the strainer was clogged then the revers would be happening you would have all the oil in the tank and not the engine. and you would not have been able to put 3 qts in it

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: E.G.O.**** ]

[moto2000]

Most dry sump engines have a check valve between the pressure pump and the oil filter. Just a spring and seat to preventing oil from the oil tank flowing into the sump.(sound familiar?) Oil pressure from the pump

opens the check valve when the engine starts. Sounds like debris holding it open or its just stuck open. Check out the oil flow charts in the manual.

[DaveJ]

I'm going to put my vote with Moto2000.

The check valve assembly, if stuck or missing, would cause this problem.

You'll need to the remove the clutch and right engine case to access the oil pumps.

Remove the rear brake lever and leave the engine in the frame.

If it's clog, and you have excessive metal floating about, you may be in need of some cleaning up.

Let us know what you find.

DaveJ

[Rancher]

The problem is fixed! I took the bike down to KCHusky's and we removed the side conver to inspect the check ball. This is where we discovered an o-ring missing. If you look at the parts breakdown for the CRANKCASE COVER 1 there is a spring, a check ball, and the check ball seat. The seat rests against the oil pump. I think this is for the high volume oil pump. There is also another port coming out of the oil pump for the scavage pump. This port has a PIN, DOWEL item # 6 on the OIL PUMP parts list and an O-Ring item # 5 on the parts list. The O-Ring was missing. We made the late night parts run to Lowes an picked up a pack of O-Rings for $1.36 and we now have oil registering in the frame.

Thanks all for the advice.

Thank you KCHusky for all the assistance with the repair!

Nate

[Boit]

Thanks tons for sharing this info. Can you go further into detail about what was going on? I took a good long look at my bike and tried to envision how the oil would not be collected in the frame tank. I'm missing something and would really like to know.

[ July 20, 2002: Message edited by: Boit ]

[kc_husky]

On Nates bike what we found missing was a o-ring that goes between the right hand case cover and the high pressure pump. Looking on page 4-82 of the 01 manual there is a dowel and a o-ring shown in the lower section of the case pic., the o-ring is highlighted in a black box saying "NEW". There are other pic's of this o-ring and dowel on page 4-53 but it's not highlight "NEW". What the o-ring is used for is to fill the gap between the oil pump and the right side cover. Which is how the oil goes from the frame to the oil line on the right hand side cover to the high pressure pump. So, back when Blue Thunder had writen they were hearing oil run to the bottom end they were.