Can't find 16012-KPT-921 needle!

[mlglemon]

All the guides say to use the 16012-KPT-921 needle for the 150F power up kit (mine is an 07), but I can't find it anywhere. I hate to shell out the money for the entire kit when I already have the jets.

 

Is there an OEM equivalent I can use?

[Traxxasfan223]

thats the same number for the 230 power-up needle  .  the 03-05 stock 230 needle will work fine(4th slot) . honda parts has that one .  or you can shim your needle .  the hardwear stores sell washers for small screws .  now and this is important !!  stainless or nylon ...  soft steel will rust .   you only need 2 or 3 and prob 50cents .  your striving for about half the thickness of a dime .  put thoses under the e-clip on your needle , shim it up .

not shur what jets you have to put in , but 42/115 is what I've read .

[Chuck.]

All the guides say to use the 16012-KPT-921 needle for the 150F power up kit (mine is an 07), but I can't find it anywhere. I hate to shell out the money for the entire kit when I already have the jets.

 

Is there an OEM equivalent I can use?

That number is a Honda part number and any dealer should be able to order it.

[mlglemon]

thats the same number for the 230 power-up needle  .  the 03-05 stock 230 needle will work fine(4th slot) . honda parts has that one .  or you can shim your needle .  the hardwear stores sell washers for small screws .  now and this is important !!  stainless or nylon ...  soft steel will rust .   you only need 2 or 3 and prob 50cents .  your striving for about half the thickness of a dime .  put thoses under the e-clip on your needle , shim it up .

not shur what jets you have to put in , but 42/115 is what I've read .

 

The 230F power up needle is the KPS, I thought.

 

 

That number is a Honda part number and any dealer should be able to order it.

 

That's good to hear. Unusual that I would not be able to find it online SOMEWHERE. I'll give them a ring, thanks!

[VortecCPI]

Attached is the original Honda Bulletin.  Please remember the main jets are way too big.

[SteveThe Snakes]

You know it's awsome that Honda has a power up kit with a non EPA needle for the the little guys. If you owned a Yamaha TTR 230 they do not make another needle that I've seen. So your stuck with putting washers on a EPA needle.

[VortecCPI]

You know it's awsome that Honda has a power up kit with a non EPA needle for the the little guys. If you owned a Yamaha TTR 230 they do not make another needle that I've seen. So your stuck with putting washers on a EPA needle.

 

Yes but look how much cleaner our air is now.  Right.  The CRF230 comes with a 102 main and runs so cleanly and so weakly it makes less power than an XR200.  So we all put in a 132 main, which causes the bike to run way too rich, resulting in greater emissions than if the EPA had never been involved in the first place.

 

In the mean time we have millions of leaf blowers and weed whackers out there spewing burnt lubricating oil all over the place.

 

I wish the EPA would go attack something else besides our 4T two-valve off-road bike engines.

 

Brilliant...

Edited March 17, 2015 by VortecCPI

[Chuck.]

Yes but look how much cleaner our air is now.  Right.  The CRF230 comes with a 102 main and runs so cleanly and so weakly it makes less power than an XR200.  So we all put in a 132 main, which causes the bike to run way too rich, resulting in greater emissions than if the EPA had never been involved in the first place.

 

In the mean time we have millions of leaf blowers and weed whackers out there spewing burnt lubricating oil all over the place.

 

I wish the EPA would go attack something else besides our 4T two-valve off-road bike engines.

 

Brilliant...

Unfortunately I think the problem has more to do with actions by the California CARB than the EPA.   They have forced Honda and others to certify  their powersport products for compliance to CA emissions and to code the type of compliance into the VIN number.  You can not transport a motorsport vehicle on public roads in CA without a OHV sticker, and there are seasonal restrictions on the use of bikes with certain VIN codes e.g. red sticky vs green sticky. Also those offroad VIN codes prevent registering for street use.

 

In contrast AZ, next door to CA, does not emission test motorcycles and it is very easy to plate a dirt bike. All you need is; headlight, one mirror, brake light, no turn signals, any tires, proof of insurance, cost $4/yr for tabs (OHV tabs are $25/yr).  Perfect for connecting trails and riding roads in National Forest, and/or Dual Sporting to a riding area.

[mlglemon]

Attached is the original Honda Bulletin.  Please remember the main jets are way too big.

 

I was under the impression that for sea level, the following was appropriate:

 

42 pilot

115 main

Exhaust baffle removed

Airbox snorkel removed

High flow air filter(?)

 

Oklahoma gets pretty hot during the summer, so I might dial it back to 112 or 110 if it needs it.

[VortecCPI]

I was under the impression that for sea level, the following was appropriate:

 

42 pilot

115 main

Exhaust baffle removed

Airbox snorkel removed

High flow air filter(?)

 

Oklahoma gets pretty hot during the summer, so I might dial it back to 112 or 110 if it needs it.

 

I believe Mike Coe found a 110 or 112 resulted in the best power on the dyno.

[mlglemon]

I believe Mike Coe found a 110 or 112 resulted in the best power on the dyno.

 

Was that with the KPT needle, 4th clip from blunt?

[VortecCPI]

Was that with the KPT needle, 4th clip from blunt?

 

From Mike Coe:

 

"I have a bone stock CRF150 that I purchased for specifically as a test bed. I have learned many many things while testing with this bike! One is that the engine's on the 150 AND 230 perform better with the STOCK needles.

The 150 runs best with a 110 main, 42 pilot, and stock needle with the clip in the 4th groove from the top.(with stock pipe and baffles removed)

 

I am finding better success just by increasing the main jet size to a 110, and the pilot jet size to a 42 on stock engined bikes. I did more pipe testing on my stock CRF150. The Dyno and air/fuel mixture analyzer reported the data to me. There is an accessory needle for sale by Honda, but personally, I'm finding that the needle isn't necessary. Depending on where you live, you may not even need to make any changes to the needle's clip position.

Remove the exhaust baffle and airbox "snorkel". Install the before mentioned jets and I think you will find the bike runs great! You may find that lowering the needle clip one position down from standard helps also.(from 3rd to 4th clip)"

[adnohguy]

From Mike Coe:

"I have a bone stock CRF150 that I purchased for specifically as a test bed. I have learned many many things while testing with this bike! One is that the engine's on the 150 AND 230 perform better with the STOCK needles.

The 150 runs best with a 110 main, 42 pilot, and stock needle with the clip in the 4th groove from the top.(with stock pipe and baffles removed)

I am finding better success just by increasing the main jet size to a 110, and the pilot jet size to a 42 on stock engined bikes. I did more pipe testing on my stock CRF150. The Dyno and air/fuel mixture analyzer reported the data to me. There is an accessory needle for sale by Honda, but personally, I'm finding that the needle isn't necessary. Depending on where you live, you may not even need to make any changes to the needle's clip position.

Remove the exhaust baffle and airbox "snorkel". Install the before mentioned jets and I think you will find the bike runs great! You may find that lowering the needle clip one position down from standard helps also.(from 3rd to 4th clip)"

2005 -150f and older I'm thinking, not 06 and newer?

[mlglemon]

From Mike Coe:

 

"I have a bone stock CRF150 that I purchased for specifically as a test bed. I have learned many many things while testing with this bike! One is that the engine's on the 150 AND 230 perform better with the STOCK needles.

The 150 runs best with a 110 main, 42 pilot, and stock needle with the clip in the 4th groove from the top.(with stock pipe and baffles removed)

 

I am finding better success just by increasing the main jet size to a 110, and the pilot jet size to a 42 on stock engined bikes. I did more pipe testing on my stock CRF150. The Dyno and air/fuel mixture analyzer reported the data to me. There is an accessory needle for sale by Honda, but personally, I'm finding that the needle isn't necessary. Depending on where you live, you may not even need to make any changes to the needle's clip position.

Remove the exhaust baffle and airbox "snorkel". Install the before mentioned jets and I think you will find the bike runs great! You may find that lowering the needle clip one position down from standard helps also.(from 3rd to 4th clip)"

 

 

Great. Sounds like I can get away with using the stock '03-'05 needle, or shimming the one I have. If they are the same needle with different grooves, I may try that first. Depends on how much tweaking I feel like doing (needles are more of a pain than jets.

 

Running a 102 main right now with no airbox/exhaust modifications and I feel like it's too rich. The 110 should be perfect with those mods. Thank you so much for finding that info for me - I've been Googling for days and never saw it!

 

 

2005 -150f and older I'm thinking, not 06 and newer?

 

I should think they'd be the same except for the needle.

[VortecCPI]

Great. Sounds like I can get away with using the stock '03-'05 needle, or shimming the one I have. If they are the same needle with different grooves, I may try that first. Depends on how much tweaking I feel like doing (needles are more of a pain than jets.

 

Running a 102 main right now with no airbox/exhaust modifications and I feel like it's too rich. The 110 should be perfect with those mods. Thank you so much for finding that info for me - I've been Googling for days and never saw it!

 

 

 

I should think they'd be the same except for the needle.

 

You are very welcome.  It makes us happy to save fellow riders time and, when possible, hard-earned cash.

 

Please let us know how it works out for you...

[adnohguy]

Great. Sounds like I can get away with using the stock '03-'05 needle, or shimming the one I have. If they are the same needle with different grooves, I may try that first. Depends on how much tweaking I feel like doing (needles are more of a pain than jets.

Running a 102 main right now with no airbox/exhaust modifications and I feel like it's too rich. The 110 should be perfect with those mods. Thank you so much for finding that info for me - I've been Googling for days and never saw it!

I should think they'd be the same except for the needle.

The two engines are no where near the same except the size of the carb is still 24mm

Completely different engines.

[mlglemon]

The two engines are no where near the same except the size of the carb is still 24mm

Completely different engines.

 

You're right, I should not assume that. Although I have not seen different jetting recommendations for the '03-'05 vs the '07+, except to change to the 1st gen needle in the case of the newer bikes... seeing as I'm the one asking for help, I'm really in no position to be stating anything   ?

[VortecCPI]

The great thing about such docile 4Ts like these bikes is you have little chance of really hurting the engine during dial-in testing and tuning.  If it was a 2T or high-strung 4T you could potentially do some damage (like melt a piston) but not with these <9:1 engines.

 

We have been using the Mikuni Roll-Off method to verify proper main jet size:

 

"The test is started with the engine running at an rpm high enough to ensure that it is “on the cam.”
Open the throttle fully and let the engine pull for several seconds.
Then, quickly close the throttle to about the 7/8ths position.
If the engine seems to gain power, the main jet is too small (lean). Fit a larger jet.
If the engine hesitates as the throttle is rolled off, the main jet is too large. Fit a smaller one.
When the main jet is correct, the engine will continue to run smoothly and evenly as the throttle is closed."

 

If you want to be safe start with a 115 main and work your way down until you get it dialed in.  Remember air temperature plays into this as well.

Edited March 17, 2015 by VortecCPI

[TX-SANDMAN]

any updates on the this .... where did you buy you CRF150F power up needle - 16012-KPT-921 ?????

[GavMac78]

Amazon - $30.  https://www.amazon.com/HONDA-16012-KPT-921-NEEDLE-SET-JET/dp/B00NO10TQM

All I did was Google the part number.  You could try Partzilla too.  They seem to be the cheapest.