Baja 1000 live updates

For sure the team guys cheat. Come on TTers! They cheat by 10 - 20 miles at a time--they have maps with checkpoint locations before the race, and while riding they have a helicopter telling em whats going on down below. LR cheated for Husky years ago, Ogilvie did it, and then taught John to cheat for Honda. Come ON! Lets be honest here. Its a chat room-we dont have to play politics.... Best thing that could happen to the Baja 1000 is for John/Steve (and others) to be DQed for cutting the course. Look at Ty Davis at Parker last year in BITD--no way anyones going to mess with a BITD course-after Folks laid down the law (and of course Casey used to cheat~!). The SCORE rule book is really specific about how far off course one can get...and the rules are routinely broken --- Its really frustrating when you are within 1-2 seconds of your class leader for 50+ miles- battling hard, and then suddenly they pop up with a 20 minute lead--and they do that twice along the course, well its bullshit. Plain and simple. We spend 10's of thousands to do this thing, and make the decision to race clean, and then get pushed back by an hour or two during the race by cheaters. How can LR, JC and the rest live with themselves? Its a great big fraud. I hope John and others from both the teams and non teams get what they deserve. I for one think Cambell is a fraud- a cheater, and i have told him that to his face, and will continue to tell him that.

What Ty Davis got - knocked out of BITD for a year for travelling backwards on the course - is a model for Mr Fish to follow. Bring back the legitimacy of the Baja 1000-! Get rid of Honda-they cheat. At least KTM leadership have the backbone to not play the game-hats off to Harden for that.

The Baja 1000 is a great competion between numerous teams that go at it fair and square. For sure you can right-off the top 3-5 finishers each year as frauds. Then come the real winners. They know who they are.

The weird thing is- JC could probably win by riding clean. But instead he cheats-let us at least be honest about it--this is the Internet after all....he could probably win it without riding (way off course) 15 miles on the laguna salada dry lake (2001) or cutting off a ten mile section at mile 60/760 (2003)....but he, and others who won their class, do this for the money, not the sport. We all know what happens when ya throw money into the equation.

SCORE needs to join the 21st century with bar code tracking a la the AMA. Sorry if the truth hurts a bit...but someone needs to say it.

Oh yeah--We had a great time but lost 4 hours when the sun went down-still managed an honest 4th in class. Gotta get some HID's for next time!!!!!

Vegas 200 December 2nd!

-Mike

Unfortunately Mike, a lot of people will think you're just a whiner, which you're not. You have the sack to say what a lot of people think, that's cool.

Cutting smoother lines is one thing, but we all know there is some funky stuff that's been hapening for decades down there.

I'm NOT saying it's the Honda guys who cut, there's tons of guys who do it. Some of the biggest cutters don't even get into the top 5 OA

Bar codes would be SWEET for these races!

So would more checks placed in key locations.

Basically the way it is now is free area between checks, and we pretty much know where most checks will be. There needs to be some checks out in the sticks at good spots.

I am torn when the issue of helicopter support comes into it.....

Baja is so dangerous with cars coming backwards on the course that I feel it's OK for the sake of safety for the lead rider to have some warning.

But yes it put's the rest of us back a couple seconds a mile which adds up.

I've run 2nd OA a couple times and 3rd OA a bunch of times and let me tell you, it's so frickin scary to try to race that stuff when you have 15 cars going backwards on the course in any given 100 mile section!!

It's absolutely crazy, it's suicide to try to ride even 95%.

And, in the 2000 team Honda did not have a copter so I thought it would level the playing field...NOT! They still made a steady gain on the field, just like usual.

Yes, they can win without good lines or a copter.

Tim

Oh yeah--We had a great time but lost 4 hours when the sun went down-still managed an honest 4th in class. Gotta get some HID's for next time!!!!!

Vegas 200 December 2nd!

-Mike

Who pitted you Mike?

For sure the team guys cheat. Come on TTers! They cheat by 10 - 20 miles at a time--they have maps with checkpoint locations before the race, and while riding they have a helicopter telling em whats going on down below. LR cheated for Husky years ago, Ogilvie did it, and then taught John to cheat for Honda. Come ON! Lets be honest here. Its a chat room-we dont have to play politics.... Best thing that could happen to the Baja 1000 is for John/Steve (and others) to be DQed for cutting the course. Look at Ty Davis at Parker last year in BITD--no way anyones going to mess with a BITD course-after Folks laid down the law (and of course Casey used to cheat~!). The SCORE rule book is really specific about how far off course one can get...and the rules are routinely broken --- Its really frustrating when you are within 1-2 seconds of your class leader for 50+ miles- battling hard, and then suddenly they pop up with a 20 minute lead--and they do that twice along the course, well its bullshit. Plain and simple. We spend 10's of thousands to do this thing, and make the decision to race clean, and then get pushed back by an hour or two during the race by cheaters. How can LR, JC and the rest live with themselves? Its a great big fraud. I hope John and others from both the teams and non teams get what they deserve. I for one think Cambell is a fraud- a cheater, and i have told him that to his face, and will continue to tell him that.

What Ty Davis got - knocked out of BITD for a year for travelling backwards on the course - is a model for Mr Fish to follow. Bring back the legitimacy of the Baja 1000-! Get rid of Honda-they cheat. At least KTM leadership have the backbone to not play the game-hats off to Harden for that.

The Baja 1000 is a great competion between numerous teams that go at it fair and square. For sure you can right-off the top 3-5 finishers each year as frauds. Then come the real winners. They know who they are.

The weird thing is- JC could probably win by riding clean. But instead he cheats-let us at least be honest about it--this is the Internet after all....he could probably win it without riding (way off course) 15 miles on the laguna salada dry lake (2001) or cutting off a ten mile section at mile 60/760 (2003)....but he, and others who won their class, do this for the money, not the sport. We all know what happens when ya throw money into the equation.

SCORE needs to join the 21st century with bar code tracking a la the AMA. Sorry if the truth hurts a bit...but someone needs to say it.

Oh yeah--We had a great time but lost 4 hours when the sun went down-still managed an honest 4th in class. Gotta get some HID's for next time!!!!!

Vegas 200 December 2nd!

-Mike

Well you bit off a big chunk their dude. It's obvious you alienated a lot of champs.

Think Casey Folks will turn the other cheek if he sees what you said.

Not a smart move.

I would like to say that I don't know of any "cheating" going on by team Honda.. I've been racing the Best in the Desert series for three years now and over the time Honda has been nothing short of total professionals, they've even worked on my Yamaha, fixing it in Baja so I could finish the race. :) Chris Blais is a good friend of mine, he tells me everything what goes on over there... Those Honda riders practice there sections over and over again just so they can win.. I'm sure that the pros will trim off a few feet of every corner to save time, but to say they "cut" the course all the time is a little much. Mike, you're way off bud!!!! Please tell me you're going to Vegas this weekend..... It's gonna be a battle....

Dan

That photo is JC, not Steve.

are you sure that photo in the post above isn't henge? i'd bet my left nut it is...

if it were johnny he'd be kissen the fender after doing a stoppie like that riding the way he does.

too bad about the claims of cheating. i have to admit that irondude isn't the first i've heard say the same thing. i've heard several make that claim, both in the industry as well as other racers. it's too bad. a real downer. our sport, desert racing, be it at the score, bitd, or d37 level is already considered old world, crazy and generally uncooth by just about everyone other than the people directly involved and perhaps the fans in japan...still trying to figure them out....

The photo is Steve just like this one aswell!!

1x_rm205.jpg

Campbell wears Acerbis gear with a Redbull helmet...... Steve wears MSR..

Irondude(Mike), I just wanted to say that when I was in Vegas I had a conversation with someone very,very close to Honda regarding Johnny Campbell cheating... It appears that he DID cut the course on the 1000, infact a helicopter has him on tape "Cheating"... That footage will be used on a new video titled "From dust till dawn". Campbell preran the section so he knows where to go.. It appears you were right and I was wrong.... I just found it hard to believe... Anyway... Team Honda lost the BITD championship to Abbott/Esposito... Team Honda showed no respect and did not show up for the awards ceremony like the other brands did.. KTM and Kawasaki stayed the whole time showing respect to their competitors...

Dan

Campbell wears Acerbis gear with a Redbull helmet

You're totally right. I was just thinking of the sections and I'm surprised SH was on the bike there where that photo was taken. And I spaced on the RedBull helmet.

My mistake!

Tim

Dan,

Congrats to Kawasaki for winning the BITD series! And congrats to you getting the 02 plate for '04. (Dan ironmanned the entire BITD series--including Baja 300 and Vegas to Reno--and only lost the championship do to a technicality)

Your info from Honda guy is the same as mine:

Honda was filmed racing on the beach (in complete violation of the rules and course), around the silt beds (and not thru them as the course is marked). For sure Casey Folks/BITD would have DQed them right then and there. :D The late afternoon shot from the helicopter will never make the final version of the upcoming full length documentary that over 80 technicians worked to capture at this years Baja 1000. No way Honda will allow it, in my opinion. But if its on the film, i am going to fart red with frustration and whine on and on about it for sure!!! Its pathetic that the Honda chase helicopter was parked on that beach, with Senior Ogilvie hooting and hollering on the radio for all to hear, directly observing (directing?) one of the great frauds in off-roading history: Team Honda and the Baja 1000 :D Honda off-road team sucks!!!! :) I really hope their BITD/SCORE program is cancelled, and a GNCC/BITD/WORCS effort is funded around the future 450X. In fact i will wager that is exactly what happens in 2005.

I have heard numerous other stories about this years 1000 cheating. For sure the winners of EVERY class (except PG in Sportsman) that rode the 650 cheated. There was even a yelling match at the finish line between 1st and 2nd placers for the over 40 class becouse of an amazing 15 minutes that where made up in the last 30 miles!!!

The first three checkpoints have been in the same spot for the last few years, so not hard to figure out how to cheat...guys tie their own ribbons thru the chapperal cheater cuts, and do the same with reflectors for the night sections....time for gps units on all bikes a la Dakar....

speaking of Dakar.....................................

Hey Tim-- where is the best site to stay up to date on your KTM comrades Dakar efforts? Dakar.com? Does KTM have plans for live updates?

Finally:usa:: Just want to give a big 'thanks' to Barnums Pro Pits for pulling off a perfect pit service at the 1000. Great job, cheaper and more frequent than Honda pits, and no attitude!! For sure I am looking forward to using Barnums Pro Pits at the San Felipe 250, Baja 300, 500, 1000 and Vegas to Reno. Bye Bye Honda pits...!!!!

Dan--see ya at Parker!

-Mike

Sounds like an opportunity for Rally Track or something like this, but the costs will need to be more affordable or perhaps something like this can be rented. It's just a matter of time before changes like this happen.

http://www.rallytrack.com/index.html

Well SUNNYMEX, bet you never thought this thread you started would become what it has! By the way Sunny, see you in Jan. to roost?!?

Yep, I'd certainly say PG and Lundin did not cut a speck off the course.

speaking of Dakar........................

Hey Tim-- where is the best site to stay up to date on your KTM comrades Dakar efforts? Dakar.com? Does KTM have plans for live updates?

Yeah, Dakar.com is great.

No live updates from KTM US as far as I can see.

Tim

Hey Mainjet-just read your post directed to me a few days ago. It got me thinking! :)

Let me ask you something, and then let me spell out a problem that is obvious to many hundreds of racers and businessmen in our sport.

Q.) After all your years in Baja, and with your close relationship with Honda: Do you think Honda cuts the SCORE courses? I dont mean a little line around the woops here and there, i mean get off the course by a 1/2 mile or more and zoom across a dry lake, a beach, or a different road for periods of 1-10 miles or more at a time. DO you think Team Honda does that at SCORE races?

Everyone i have talked to in person about this agrees with me. EVERYONE. Honda does do this at SOCRE races-thats what everyone i have talked to about this says. Others do it as well.

Mainjet- i have bought at least a dozen Hondas in my life, and love em. Hey-i even race one! I have had positive experiences with Honda Off Road guys in numerous situations: and i have used Honda pits, etc. etc. SO let me try to spell out where i am coming from on this:

Why isnt KTM or Kawasaki racing SCORE? A KTM won the BITD Baja 300 a few months ago! They dont race it becouse SCORE is no longer a legitimate race series-(yes both Green and Ornage have a bike that could win). Why doesnt Dunlop tires want to get any more involved in the race? Same reason: and on and on it goes. Becouse i love the sport, and want to see it grow, i am frustrated by the actions of Honda-who IMHO have de-legitimized the SCORE series (for bikes) by over-dominating it: which was done by excessive cheating.

Honda profits by doing this--some guy in Wyoming will buy an XR cause he read they won the Baja 1000.

Can you imagine what would happen to KTM's reputation and sales if they won the last few 1000's? All that talk about reliability would go out the window. The XR's sales would take a hit. (KTM would be even more back-ordered-but thats another story!)

- If Honda didnt/couldnt cheat (bar codes, gps, whatever) we would see KTM factory guys down there, Kawasaki guys down there (maybe not factory guys do to a sad accident), and far more Dakar/Rallye euro's giving it a shot. Lots more district focused pro's and experts would get into it. It would be a significantly larger, and far more interesting and fun race.

Thats where i am coming from.

So Mainjet- you think i have bit off more than i can chew? No way man! Sal and Casey struggle with these same thoughts. SO do Orange and Green and Blue team managers and dozens of aftermarket sales reps and D-37 amatuer racers who are thinking about trying the 1000. Its just that theres no way in hell they will ever get caught saying this sort of thing in a public forum.

Nothing wrong with stating the truth-but it can make things awkward!!!! If 4-5 'champs' (i prefer 'chumps') are left standing naked here :D on TT for a brief few days, exposed as the frauds they are (and so are defensive and pissed off about it) well--thats to bad for them, and IMHO its good for the sport. Maybe they will clean up there act a bit.

HONDA CHEATS AT SCORE RACES, AND SO DO MANY OTHERS, AND ITS A PROBLEM. :D

Apparently you dont think Honda cheats at SOCRE races-or maybe you think its ok becouse in the big picture Honda is good for SCORE and SCORE is good for Honda. (I used to think that way)

For sure they cheat, Mainjet-ask anyone. Big time. Problem is-they have taken it to a whole new level. :D

Respectfully,

-Mike

I think you should change your handle to Iron Nads! :)

Props to you Mike for taking a stand and not backing down.

This has been a very interesting thread.

WOW!

So does it change from "Ride Red" to "Cheat Red" ???

~ Ken

If this is true about Team Honda cheating in desert races then I am very disappointed, I have always looked up to those guys as the heros of desert racing. I have enjoyed riding my XR600 and XR650 for years now and have used team honda as bragging rights for the bikes reputation to my friends. Oh well! :)

in mexico if you aint cheatin you aint tryin :):D the farmers open gates for those who have the big wallets like honda, herbst, gordan etc they take like mikes sky ranch and other goat trails out of the race again if you aint cheatin you aint tryin

Hey Smoke-

Thanks for jumping in to this 'red hot' string...seems to me you are on to somethin when ya write "in baja ya aint tryin if ya aint cheaten"

But first let me ask ya somethin-

You think Honda cheated the Baja 300? NO WAY. No way they would risk cheating at a Best in the Desert race--not after the incident at Parker 250 last January. You think Joey Lanza cheated the Baja 300 on his KTM? NO WAY!! He won the race-clean. Fair and square. He won the overall without cheating--and theres no way in hell his team manager would stand for anything other than a clean race. Its not Baja-its SCORE races that are the source of so much cheatin. OK- you meant the SCORE races, not all Baja races. But its significant to point out that SCORE/HONDA/BAJA is the problem.

Unfortunately at SCORE races--especially the 1000-- Team Honda is cheating in a systematic, well thought out, pre-planned operation.

KTM's Baja 300 victory was real, and demonstrates Baja racing can (and should) be clean. John Cambell/Steve Hengveld's Baja 1000 victory was not real-they broke the rules--again--not just finding a smoother route around Pole Line woops--as Herbst, Gorden, and others will do (myself included) but racing way off the course on roads, drylakes and beaches--they have cheated "to much"--they have crossed the line BIG TIME--and thats the problem.

"in baja if ya aint cheaten ya aint tryin"? -- I agree with your sentiments SMOKE--cheating is the legacy of the Baja 1000--and the only way one can expect to win-- And for sure you are right if you mean there is a point where cheating and doing your homework (pre-running) to find a faster line becomes blurred. But that isnt what I am whining on and on about!

I am talking about a systematic, pre-planned, well organized, by whatever means necessary, attack by Honda Motor Company and Team Honda on the Baja 1000 for the corporate greed/marketing value of a victory. IMHO it is a criminal offense equal to the smoke and mirrors manipulation of the energy market by Enron. Johnny Cambell, Steve Hengveld, Bruce Ogilvie, and HONDA should be investigated by Interpole for this corruption. IMHO it is a criminal activity that is formulated in Japan, and the USA and implemented in Mexico... :D I am not a lawyer but IMHO they are guilty of collusion in this ongoing conspiracy to delude race fans and fraudulently mislead themselves as victorious in the Baja 1000. They should be treated in the pages of Cycle News and Dirt Bike in the same manner Sports Illustrated treated Pete Rose.

The Baja 1000 is the single largest tourist draw in Baja. It is now going on 37 years old-its an incredible event that touch's the very soul of both desert racers and the rough and tuff inhabitants of Baja's interior. Its far older, and far greater, than Honda's interest in desert racing-but it's very legitimacy is under attack by the selfish interests of Honda. For sure there has always been some element of "saving a few seconds here and there" at the 1000-- But what Honda is doing down there at the 1000 is way over the line-its nothing but a pathetic example of corporate greed! Cheating on this level is not done in the Baja 300 (not by Honda or anyone else), or the Tecate Hair Scrambles, or in other Baja series....again-its a corporate level effort to cheat that I am talking about- thats whats being done by Honda in Baja at the 1000 --- that's f-ed up :) Thats what i'm talking about, SMOKE- this is a case of Corporate Greed, not Troy Herbst finding a faster line around some woops. Niether Herbst nor Riviera, nor Mc Millan, nor anyone else OTHER than Team Honda got off course by 10 miles and on to the Laguna Salada Dry Lake in 2001 Baja 1000. Team Honda did. Everyone else struggled over a 10 mile stretch of 30-40 mph woops and sand and bad sections of Talc like silt. Not John Campbell on his Honda. He pulled out of Honda pit 4 and deliberatly went WAY off the course--5 miles west of the course route--and then took his 650 up to 110 mph for 10 miles accross a dry lake as flat and fast as the Bonneville Salt Flats-only to re-enter the race course after making up a quick 10 minutes time...one of many many many many examples of way over the top and completely excessive cheating-far beyond what Herbst or anyone else does. Its sad. Campbell is a religious man-a church going bible thumper who never drinks-with a public persona of a focused and almost super-human off road racer. IMHO he's more like a hypocrite and a creep-and a pawn in Corporate Honda's marketing plans.

I agree with ya SMOKE--Baja 1000 has always been a bit loose--but the Machiavellian tactics of Honda are not part of the legacy. Its WAY over the line and un-acceptable. :D

Just my little 2 peso's worth....

-Mike

Mike (irondude)

I completly agree with you you sound like you have raced a few baja's in your day... on bikes i have only done them in buggys and trucks not on a bike i dont have the balls to do that. but then again why dosent score put checkpoints along that where you can make up 30 minutes in 10 miles but score wont. i know for a fact the ranchers for a couple hundred bucks will open a gate and you can cut off anywhere from 5 to 20 miles of the course. baja is fastest from start to finish the race course is marked and fines should be given if you are off the course more than say 100 yards not the 100 foot rule they have now NO ONE and i mean no one stays within 100 foot of the race course the hole time. to honda they have been around the 1000 how many times 100's upon 100's of times like all the greats then know the fastest line around. tell me this if you knew about this "short cut" and you were in the lead would you take it to win the greatest off-road race of all time HELL YES you would any one would. i believe honda did there homework and it pays off next year do you think score will have someone there yes because score covers there asses every year when someone "cheats" again if ya aint cheatin ya aint tryin they WILL do something about it because score believes level the playing field so we can get some tv coverage and maybe some more money well again mike (irondude) i completle agree with you with cuting 10 miles of sand whoops out and replacing it with a dry lake is wrong. but the only way to stop cheating it to put camera's on everyone and review it before the determine the winner. IMHO that would be the only thing to solve "cheating"

SMOKE

Mike

here is something interesting to check out...I was cheking out some pictures from the race and I came across this one

http://www.offroad.com.mx/cgi/fotos/displayimage.php?album=26&pos=81

this is a picture of 1x by san felipe/zoo road... and to tell you the truth it does not look like Johnny C. or Steve H. at all. check out that helmet, check out the body size and gear that that person is wearing!!! I'm not sure about this but you can be the judge yourself. Who do you think is riding the bike???? Maybe Bruce O.? maybe :):D

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