Video timing AP squirt with different leak jets

44 replies to this topic
  • barton

Posted 06 November 2003 - 08:34 PM

#1


After re-adjusting my AP timing screw per the manual (thanks James), I recorded the follwing squirt timings:

Soldered---->1.733 sec.
#35--------->0.800 sec.
#40--------->0.667 sec.
#50--------->0.467 sec.
#75--------->0.267 sec.

This is with the stock AP pump diaphragm on my 03 WR250. I measured the height of the rivet in my AP pump and it is only 4mm tall! Am I measuring in the right place? If so, my squirt times SHOULD be longer than the one James Dean listed in another thread. I am measuring from the top of the rivet to the flat, shallow cup it is mounted in.

Anyway, I left the #40 LJ in, and will try to to do some test riding tomorrow. These figures don't mean much unless we can translate them into performance.

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  • BadBird69

Posted 06 November 2003 - 09:11 PM

#2

Great info :) Just curious whats your elavation and
temp? As its gotten colder I'm starting to have more bog problems and I knew I would.
Just looking for a little "REAL" not artical suggestions!
Thanks....
:D :D :D

  • barton

Posted 07 November 2003 - 05:41 AM

#3

Elevation 500'. Temp ~50 degrees F

  • Rick_Kienle

Posted 07 November 2003 - 07:49 AM

#4

I am not absolutely sure but I think the heighth of the AP diaphragm is measured from the top side to the bottom of the rivet. Not just from the rivet to the bottom side of the diaphragm.

  • barton

Posted 07 November 2003 - 11:13 AM

#5

If I understand you right, you mean the entire thickness of the AP diaphragm, including the rivet. I'll check it out. Thanks.

  • barton

Posted 08 November 2003 - 03:46 PM

#6

BOG GONE!! :D :) I generally like my idle set low so I can putt through the woods with my son. With the 40 leak jet, there is almost no bog. If I set my idle up to spec, NO bog! People aren't kidding when they say its worth the effort to figure out this problem. Makes the bike so much fun to ride!

  • James_Dean

Posted 10 November 2003 - 04:32 PM

#7

Barton,

Thanks for taking the time to research and post the information.

The stock #90-105 leak jets give a VERY short pump duration and must be nearly .2-.25 seconds. In some cases this may not be enough and switching out the leak jet is a good option. A fast idle per the Yamaha manual also helps along with setting the pump timing as the manual describes.

To explain, the leak jets are far bigger than the nozzle where the fuel squirts into the engine. The nozzle is only .3mm versus a .9mm leak jet, making the fuel mostly return to the float bowl from the diaphram chamber.

With a stock #90 leak jet-
(.9x.9)/(.3x.3) = 9, or approximately 9 times the flow (90%) returns to the bowl compared to what reaches the nozzle (10%).
(It's more complicated to be precise, but you get the idea)

Changing to a #40 leak jet-
(.4x.4)/(.3x.3) = 1.78, and roughly 65% leaks off and 35% is forced to the accelerator pump nozzle.
1/(1+1.78) = .35

Compare 35% to 10% and the results should be noticeable, or .8 seconds versus .25 seconds

The bottom line-- Using a leak jet in the range of #40-#50 looks like a good choice to compare if you have problems with bogging.

--------------

The diaphram lengths are measured from the top (where the pump rod contacts) down to the bottom of the rivet. The stock '03WR250F is 7.5mm.

James

  • Bandit9

Posted 10 November 2003 - 05:05 PM

#8

Hey Hey what ya say there Barto? You like? Told you it kicked ass with no bog. Another one converted.

  • DArcy_Davidson

Posted 10 November 2003 - 05:49 PM

#9

I like the fact that there appears to be some science emerging here relating to the bog issue (started in previous threads). I am going to buy myself a new LJ tomorrow and will report back. I am at about 500' and 32-80 deg. F, and run a completely stock pipe and jetting till now.

Thanks to all!

  • barton

Posted 10 November 2003 - 06:31 PM

#10

You didn't really have to convert me, it was just a matter of finding the right combination. You are absolutely right tho', it's a different bike with the bog fixed.

In a slightly different vein, James Dean has posted that his squirt times are longer than the ones I have measured with the same leak jet. I wonder if my AP circuit is clogged or has some other obstruction.

Questions for James: 1) Have you ever "cleaned" your AP circuit, thereby opening up the passage? 2) How did you measure your squirt times? 3) Can you recommend a method for cleaning my AP passages to determine if mine has an obstruction.

We may actually get this nailed down! Cool!

  • Bandit9

Posted 10 November 2003 - 07:06 PM

#11

Yeah it is totally different. I wonder how many owners out there in YZF/WRF land are just living with the bog? Thousands?
It looks like now, through the effort of Barton, Rick, Sceptor and JD and others, all you have to do to get rid of your off idle bog, is to purchase a #40,45,50,55 leak jets and expirement with each. That is about $25 and about what, maybe an hour or two of your time. If you don't know much about jetting, this is really simple stuff. You bog sufferers out there owe it to yourselves to try this. The only thing to remember when testing the different leak jets is to actually ride it around while testing each one. Don't get lazy and just whack the throttle on the stand in neutral. Make sure it is warmed up good and ride it around for a few minutes working through the gears coming out of a corner at low speed. If you whack it while going really slow in a higher gear, it will still stumble some, that is to be expected, but not in 1st or 2nd and for the most part 3rd. You better be prepared for the front end to lift up. Have fun with you new found power.

  • James_Dean

Posted 10 November 2003 - 11:51 PM

#12

barton,

The squirt times were just an estimate with a stop watch. They aren't nearly as accurate as your methods. The closed leak jet ran-on a little longer on my bike(2+ seconds), which would more likely mean my bike is the one with possible clogging. The longer time means the flow volume was either greater from the pump or the passages to exit were more restrictive. (Or the spring tension is lighter- another real possibility for different model years)

==============

Cleaning the accelerator pump passages is difficult and risks damage to the seal in the carb. I don't recommend it except as a last resort. Try spraying cleaner thru the passages first.

--As a last option, the carb mid-body can be split by removing the torx and/or allen head screws with the anti-tamper paint on them. The carb will come apart to expose the mid-body seal which is NOT AVAILABLE FOR REPLACEMENT. (Don't damage it :) ) The internal passages become exposed and the bottom of the brass nozzle has what looks like a flat blade screw head. This is a press-fit brass piece that should be flushed with solvent. It can be removed by pushing down from above and gently turning the flat blade slot head back and forth. The secondary, internal check valve should also be flushed with solvent to see that it is clear of debris too. It is pressed into a blind hole and cannot be removed.
Reassemble without sealer to prevent clogging any passages from excess flow.

Other than the check valve, nearly every passage in the FCR carburetor is available to clean by this method.

James :D

  • bullfrog

Posted 11 November 2003 - 03:35 AM

#13

So is a squirt of around 0.5 sec what we should be looking for?

  • barton

Posted 11 November 2003 - 05:16 PM

#14

JD, thanks for the info, but I think I'll leave that part of the carb alone for now. :D I don't even want to think what a replacement would cost :) if I messed this one up.

Bullfrog, the squirt time that works good for my 03 WR is about .7 sec. That is not to say that .5 won't work as well. I haven't yet determined exactly what the optimum squirt time is, only that my bike responds well with the .7 sec duration.

Having said that, probably anything between .4 and .8 seconds will be a vast improvement over the stock squirt duration. You will have to decide how much tweaking you want to do to satisfy your subjective opinion of what works best. The numbers we are deriving would best be considered a good starting point.

Best thing to do is like Bandit9 says and spend $25 to buy a few leak jets in the 35-50 range and try 'em all out. They should put you in the proper range (provided you are using the stock 7.5mm AP diaphragm), and you can decide which best fits your riding style.

Good luck,
Brad

  • bullfrog

Posted 11 November 2003 - 06:56 PM

#15

I'll go pick them up this weekend and try them out. My AP diaphragm is stock. This is to help with the bog that happens when you twist the throttle open too fast correct? Thanks

  • Bandit9

Posted 11 November 2003 - 08:41 PM

#16

Bullfrog, yes this is the bog cure. You might want to call ahead and check on the leak jets. Your dealer probably will have to order them. They don't sell a lot of the lower number leak jets, hell I doubt they would even have a stock one on hand.

  • sndmn2

Posted 11 November 2003 - 09:43 PM

#17

I was wondering why my 02 can.model uses a 105 leak jet compared to the u.s. model with the 60.Seems like quite a differance.The other diff.are main jet ,u.s.#175 can.#170. Jet needle,u.s.obelq-3,can.obekp-3. :)

  • Reponator

Posted 11 November 2003 - 10:23 PM

#18

I have also been believing that this was the solution to the bog issue. I'm glad so many of you are reporting success. It reassures me that I'm moving in the right direction. One question though, where are you guys getting the part numbers for the smaller leak jets(less than a #60)? This was probably posted somewhere and I just missed it. I have ordered all the way to 60 and I'm hoping that will fix it or at least show a vast improvement so I know I'm going in the right direction. :)

  • Rick_Kienle

Posted 11 November 2003 - 10:28 PM

#19

The WRF and YZF list different ranges of leak jets on the parts fiche. For the lower numbers you have to look at both, I can't remember right now which one has the lower numbers. However, all the part numbers are listed on the FAQ:

Yamaha OEM part numbers

  • Reponator

Posted 11 November 2003 - 10:34 PM

#20

Thanks Rick. I've been to the FAQ a hundred times and must have somehow kept missing that section. :) :D



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