How do you faster riders "push through" those mental barriers to increase your skill at higher speeds.  I am sitting in a nice comfortable place right now and need to a breakthrough. Every lap I say to myself This lap, okay this lap. I have done all my homework, taken lots of group and private lessons, watched and studied all the videos. Everyone tells me I have good technique and all I need to do is twist my wrist. Any tricks would be helpful. I just keep riding hoping that all of a suddenly I will get through it naturally but I have hit a wall. Cheers

Well, I can't really say I'm one of the "faster riders", but I have been riding long enough to know that when you feel you've hit a wall, and don't seem to be able to find specific points to improve upon, increasing your fitness and simply riding with people who are much faster than yourself tends to be the best ways to improve...

Everyone is gonna say, to go quicker you need to go slower... I mean, yes if you don't know how to ride, then for sure, you should take a break and spend a few years just working on the basics. However, once you've got the basics drilled in and I mean so drilled, everything you do on the bike is second nature, then you can progress in speed. Learning through the forums or having someone teach you on track, doesn't reduce the seat time necessary to go quicker.

I've talked with a lot of pro's, both from AMA and the FIM series. I've also spent a great deal of time with professional roadracers, and what I've learned about being "fast" is actually something that makes a lot of sense.

The key is pushing your limit one corner and one jump at a time. Take it very slowly, find that one corner that you can practice going quicker through, find that one jump you can learn how to scrub or whip. Pushing it an entire lap isn't going to work because your brain isn't wired to go past your build-in speed governor, your build-in limit. So by pushing your limit in a given part of the track, where the consequences are limited, you can feel what its like to go a tiny bit quicker and eventually translate that quickness into the rest of the track over many hours, maybe even years.

Wanna hear the good news or the bad news?

The good news is; all ya gotta do is ride more. Quit your job, get a part time job, move closer to the track, practice 4 times a week and get 20 hours of seat time per week. The more quality seat time you have, the more you break out of your comfort zone during that seat time, focusing on the pointers I put above, the quicker you will get.

The bad news is; once you've broken through your current comfort zone, you've gotta break through another one and another one and another one. It never ends, the pro's are still breaking through comfort zones ALL the time, its a vicious cycle that will leave you confused, wanting more and seeking greater and greater speed until you either hurt yourself too much or give up because you get too old.

Finally, you will know when you're breaking through a comfort zone and riding quicker. Everything will seem like a blur, you won't be thinking in any way about the bike or the track or even what's the best line to take. You'll be focused on the guy in front of you and keeping those guys behind you, far behind you. Keith Code's biggest contribution to the world of riding bikes is the biggest key to going quick. You've got 40 things to do when you ride, some of those tasks are subconscious, some of those tasks are conscious. Your conscious mind can only do 10 tasks at its max, so putting more and more tasks in your subconscious is the key, if you ride by yourself on an empty track, you should have zero tasks on your conscious mind. When you're "in the zone" you will be thinking about dinner, what you might be doing the day later and how much fuel you've got in the bike, not riding...

Whatever you do, take your time and don't do anything WAY over your pay grade.

Here is a short clip of me "pushing", sectioning a part of the track and getting out of my comfort zone.

vetuphillgood.mov

Edited by tye1138, 28 May 2012 - 06:48 PM.

Race.  Entering a race with make you push the envelope a little due to the adrenaline, then you will crave that rush that comes with pushing your personal limits a bit

Yellowbanana, on 28 May 2012 - 07:30 PM, said:

Everyone and I mean everyone says this and its such a canned answer.

Getting an adrenaline rush, doesn't make you faster. All it does is make you more prone to making mistakes and keeps you hooked on that rush. If you learn how to ride quick WITHOUT needing the adrenaline, then when you race, you will be one step above the adrenaline junkies who will wind up crashing because they still can't ride, they still aren't focused on seat time.

Also, who says you'll get pushed at all, who says you will be in any battle what so ever? Most likely, you'll just be circling the track behind the leaders and it's just one long practice session where you can't get off. Unless you plan on being a racer as a long-term goal, finding speed and being a racer, have little to do with each other in my book. I'd much rather spend a day on the track, focused on drilling and putting in decent moto's, rather then getting sucked into the whole racing program and sitting around for most of the day whilst other races are going on.

I did my quickest laptimes in roadracing during practice. I'd practice with the larger CC bikes and they'd push me, much harder then I'd be pushed in racing. Yet, if I wanted to let them past so I could tag along and watch their lines, it was a simple wave and they were past. You can use the same technique on the MX track, find some fast guys, get in front of them, have them push you and then watch them ride from behind and see if you can pass them. That my friend is a fantastic way to go quicker without racing.

I'm not gonna say that racing is a waste of time, if racing is your goal. It is critical to learn race craft and get seat time to practice it as much as possible. However, race craft usually has little to do with going quick, its all to do about blocking lines, finding those hidden lines, riding in and around other people very closely and of course the start... None of those things are necessary to go quick.

Edited by tye1138, 28 May 2012 - 09:42 PM.

how many different tracks do you frequent? It's easy to get get stuck in a rut if your riding the same few tracks. The other thing is just consistent seat time. It's really hard to keep pushing forward if you can only ride once a week.

Wow, Once a week is hard for me to acheive.  Sometimes I can ride more, but sometimes I can't ride at all.  I'm still pushing through, but I'll admit, it's a slower process than I'd like.

Tye's first response was good, but his resistance to racing is wrong IMO.  Racing is where almost every single barrier is broken in my experience.  I was a roadracer for many years in a very big and competitive club.  I have practiced tens of thousands of laps.  That seat time lays the base for skill acquisition, but it is the taking of chances in race mode that puts those fundamentals to the test.

I only race MX once a year, but it's the most valuable single day of riidng in my season.

Paab, on 29 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Exactly.....racing makes you apply everything you already know and see where you stand.  Tye, how can you say getting the adrenaline rush from a race doesn't make you faster??? That's nonsense.  Have you ever raced mx??

I find someone who is slightly faster than me and try to keep up with them or pass them, like a dog chasing a rabbit.

Edited by captainhog, 29 May 2012 - 09:31 AM.

Honestly, some days when I'm out practicing I don't mind someone right in my face, but most of the time, the jerk that pulls on in front of you to try and "hold you off" going 5 seconds slower is annoying.  Same for the guy that feels awesome about himself cause he follows you out every time you leave the truck just to hound you for your whole moto.

Rather than annoy everyone on the track, try to meet some people close in speed to you, or a little faster, and actually go riding with them instead of badgering people you don't know.

As far as breaking through barriers, changing dicsiplines can help a ton. Go trail riding, hill climbing, free riding or even hop on a pit bike.  It might not be the most fun day of riding, but the sense of accomplishment you'll get from pushing a new set of boundaries can make it more fun than you would expect

It sounds like you're doing drills already, but one of the biggest improvements I made was to ride a tight (1st gear) figure 8 lust layed out with 2 tires and a friend.  It will really push your corner speed, and get you very comfortable with as much power as your bike has being in 1st gear the whole time.  Having a friend with you will break your concentration everytime you let off to let him cross the figure 8, and make you change up your line when he's on you or you're trying to pass him.  Start out riding deliberately slow, and do a few laps focusing on your fundamentals. you'll be pushing as hard as you can much sooner than you realize, and still be only focusing on "brake" "sit" "weight the peg" "slide forward" "clutch" "gas" "slide back"

Paab, on 29 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Yellowbanana, on 29 May 2012 - 06:53 AM, said:

Believe it or not, most people who race, still do the pace they are comfortable with during said race. Its not like adrenaline is going to magically make you quicker. It might SEEM like you're going quicker when you are racing, but in most cases, the pace you do in practice resembles the pace you will do during a race. Henceforth, you aren't breaking through any barriers what so ever.

Racing is good for many reasons, one of which is getting pushed. However, you can get pushed during practice as well. Not only that, but you can ride with people during practice who are WAY quicker then you are, people who are A/B class racers.

I think if you practice all week long and get 10 - 20 hrs of seat time every week, racing on the weekends is important because its a change of venue and a way to take the skills you worked on all week and put them to the test. However, most people can only ride one time a week, sometimes twice. So in that case, its hard to justify racing as your ONLY seat time. I'd much rather spend 2 - 3 hours on track pushing it with guys who are much quicker then I am in practice, rather then waste my entire day sitting around waiting for the next moto.

By the way, I have a lot of data to backup what I'm saying. I've worked with many people who are racers and I've seen them sit stagnant skill-wise because they ONLY race and don't practice nearly as much.

Paab, on 29 May 2012 - 03:09 AM, said:

Me too, few championships at the fastest track in the west coast.

During a race however, what if you don't need to take any chances. What if you're doing good laptimes, you're a 3rd place guy no matter what you do, then what?

Most beginner racers, don't get into battles, they don't take any major risks and likewise stay stagnant. It takes years for those riders to get quicker and racing doesn't make them quicker, seat time does. Its much easier to practice going quicker, pushing each individual section of the track harder, one section by one section until you understand how much harder you CAN push, rather then just throw all your balls on the table and hope for the best. I'd rather learn in an environment that I control, rather then one other people control and you're just part of the ride.

Edited by tye1138, 29 May 2012 - 12:16 PM.

SOAB_465, on 29 May 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

I did a weekend training camp with Shane Watts, Dirtwise off Road School and he had us doing things with our bikes I never even thought possible. Great crossover training and all the skills directly relate to handling an MX bike. Highly recommend his program. Made me way more confident and way faster everywhere except the jumps.

Thing with me is I need some balls. I  can whoop or hold my own against most of the riders at my local track in corners and technical sections, then I slam on the breaks and roll the doubles with them nearly slamming into my ass because they think I am a good rider up to this point. Then I get back on the gas line up the next jump carrying plenty of corner speed, then I pile on the breaks and  pound into the uphill face of the next double and keep it going. Very frustrating and tiring to the body,

I think it is man the f#$k up time. Everyone tells me I am going laugh at myself when I finally man up and do them. They are designed to be fast and forgiving but a lot of them are blind and freak me out. Maybe a couple rum might help first , lol !!

Anyhow, thanks everyone for the tips. I will report back after the weekend form my hospital room or from home a very happy rider (if i don't wimp out again.)

Later

P.S. Weather permitting, I ride 3-4 times a week. I don't work 6 months of the year.

Edited by Thumper35, 29 May 2012 - 12:29 PM.

Yea, jumping is one of those things ya gotta kinda pin it and do it.

If you ride 3 - 4 times a week and you can get your jumping fixed, for sure start racing. Thats a great deal of seat time and I think racing would be a great thing to do because you get so much time on the track.

I'm kinda surprised you ride so much and haven't tried to clear those jumps...  I'd go nutz if I didn't clear those jumps. I tend to ride tracks that have simpler jumps, gotta start small to go big!

Tye,  just back down once.  You don't need to be the final word on everything.  Someone's gonna call you out eventually.  The bullshit stops when the green flag drops.

I looked at your vids.  Taking a chapionship in your first year pretty much gaurantees me that it was uncontested in the points by any series regular.  Fastest track in the west or not...  No one, and I mean no one has ever been able to steal an expert championship in their first year in LRRS.  The fields are just too deep.  Even now after willow has folded due to low turn out.

I'm not saying you are a bad rider or anything.  You look to be good.  I just think your perspective is very skewed.  What it takes to win an expert championship is YEARS of racing bar to bar.  Like I said, practice is good, but it will never replace racing.  I instruct on track 15 days a year, and I never see anyone progress as quickly as when they finally go racing.  THAT is the real data that I see.

If you want to break through your MX barriers, swallow your pride and get out there and get your ass handed to you.  You will suddenly find the barriers melting away.

Sorry to slag on you a bit, but you really don't let anyone else contribute to this forum.

Paab, on 29 May 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

I know all about LRRS, been to Loudon many times to visit (I'm from Wellesley) and it looks like a great series. We don't have anything out here thats even close to that series. All the club races out here are contested by a grid filled with current AMA card-holding professionals and ex-professionals. Its extremely hard to find any expert class that is JUST club racers. Since I raced Ducati's, I went with a middleweight class because I could race the bike in both middleweight and heavyweight twins classes. The middleweight class was full of previous champions and several really well prepared bikes. I spent the whole 11 round series focused on that championship and won most of the races. Sadly, my closest competitors had issues as the year went on, most of which were mechanical and/or crashing. So you can "say" the championship was handed to me, but it was only because of others mistakes. To win a championship you need to be there every weekend and have a bike that works. I won rookie of the year, sportsman of the year and also was top 12 in over-all points. Missed out on top 10 because of two DNF's which were mechanical issues, one due to over-heating and one due to someone running into me on the warm-up lap. I also got a few 3rd places in classes FULL of 1200cc machines and liter twins on my 749R. You can watch my youtube videos, I was getting the holeshot from the 2nd row of the grid in the heavyweight races.

To my knowledge, nobody in the previous 10 years had achieved what I did. Sadly, the online records don't go back farther then that.

Paab, on 29 May 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

I spent 38 days on the track in 2008 and over 40 in 2009. Thats a great deal of seat time, you grow SO much quicker by just being in the seat. My championships are solid records of that. On my 2010 bike, I was over a second quicker on my first day of testing. You can't tell me one moment that extra speed had anything to do with racing.

tye1138, on 29 May 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Believe what you want man, I don't care if you race or not. But you can't tell me that JS7 practices at the same pace he races. Why do you think he crashed so much in his racing career??? Just because of his bike?? He is crashing because he is pushing it to the limit during racing. Unless you practice with other people with the same mentality as you have it won't be the same pace as racing. You might feel like you are going really fast in practice, but that's partially due to the fact that the other guys out there aren't riding like they race. Its a whole different level of aggressive riding when you are trying to beat the guy next to you and they are doing the same.

Oh and to be clear, I'm not saying replace seat time with racing. I'm saying racing is absolutely necessary as a supplement to practice, if you plan on advancing your riding skills quickly

Edited by Yellowbanana, 29 May 2012 - 02:35 PM.

Yellowbanana, on 29 May 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:

First off, professional racers, they crash all the time during practice. In fact, I've been witness to some of them being carted off in the ambulance at Milestone on SEVERAL occasions. Heck, Trey Canard has been injured from practicing for quite a while, poor guy.

Second, most racers practice at the absolute limit, which is why in qualifying they're able to put in those unbelievable laps. Most professional racers can duplicate those laps during the race, but they practice it first, understand the limits of the track and duplicate it during the race. Again, practice, practice, practice. The race is just that same good lap over and over again.

Third off, James Stewart is a head-case. He can't race unless he puts in the quickest lap, every lap. Most crashes don't happen from putting in quick laps, they happen from making simple mistakes whilst battling with other people.

Finally, I have spent plenty of time with club-racing level MX racers. I have many buddies who use to race the friday night lights series at Milestone. I've timed them with my iphone in the race and during practice and for the most part, the laptimes were always the same. SO yea, I have data to prove to say you aren't necessarily going to magically go faster when you race.

The point is not to compare cocks, it is that you are really overbearing about your advice and don't give anyone else room to have a voice. You never know who is on here. They may even be better than you, or just have a different point of view.

I guess I set this up by saying you were wrong, but really, you CAN be wrong.  It's OK.

I realize that there are all sorts of different levels of riding skill logged in here, and a lot of very new riders looking for answers to ''classic'' questions of newer riders. There is no magic answer. Most questions about riding are best answered with a basic " what to try to do" followed by seat time figuring out how to do "it". Seat time to learn skills , experience things that can't be expressed well with words, and what works and doesn't work.
With that said, Tye you have in the past given reasonable answers, but on occasion (and more so recently) given unreasonable answers and "pat" replies that sound as if you're just repeating something you heard and crediting it as THE only way. A lot of time you back up what you state with "I've spoken to many......" "They all say....." and "In my championship road racing experience..."
I'm getting older and my patience is getting shorter. Tye, you're wrong, a lot of the time. If what you say works , you should be winning the expert class next year at vet x or Lucas Oil events.
I road with Tye once, at piru mx. I encouraged him to race with OTHG in the beginner class. I don't mean to be a dick but seriously, knowing that I was there and log on to here, I can't believe you'd have an opinion on anything other than very basic riding.  Stop blaming the bike. It's not the arrow, it's the indian.
A real way to progress is to ride at the edge of your comfort zone. Racing encourages you to do just that. Racing is dangerous because everyone there is racing in that zone. It's a dangerous place to be. You have to use common sense and maturity while you are racing, and even then that doesn't garauntee your safety. The "rush" of racing is something you either get, or don't and you have to judge whether or not it's worth it to you to risk your safety for.
I don't want to be a dick, but at the same time...... seriously?

IMO, though Tye is on the right track and offers good advice, Paab and YellowBanana have hit the nail on the head. Riding with faster people will no doubt make you a faster rider but racing will push you into a whole new category. You will be come more aggressive, more creative in line choice, more efficent, etc etc. Nothing will have you come into a corner hotter or get on the throttle quicker when someone is only 5 feet in front of you. Practice is useless unless you have something to measure it up too. Go enter a race, see where you end up and improve from there!