I measured how much transmission oil came out and it was only 650ml, is this normal?

I wouldn't worry about 50ml. Even if you let it drain all day you wont get it all out. It sits on the gears and in the clutch plates.

How long ago did you put in the 700ml? And are you sure you put in 700ml to begin with?
But either way that 50ml should make much difference...

Nah... Be worried if if nothing comes out.

I would measure over time to see if it is consistent.  But, as said, 50 ml isn't much and if you look behind the inner clutch case, you will find that much of that 50ml stays there when you drain.  That is why there are 2 drains on our bikes.  I just never worry about the brake side.

jlmotox, on 16 May 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

I change my oil about every 5-8 gallons of gas I go through and yes it was exactly 700ml in.

maxamillion125, on 17 May 2012 - 05:39 AM, said:

Heck, I go through 4 - 5 gallons of gas every day I ride! LOL

I usually change my oil every month, its not as critical to change frequently as people or the manual says. People forget, most 4 strokes share oil with the transmission and clutch assembly, yet don't have to be changed for thousands of miles.

Last motor build I did, I payed attention to how much oil I got out of the motor before the build, it was less then 700ml, don't know how much less, but for sure less. When I took the motor out of the frame, took off the clutch cover and placed the motor on its side, raised off an oil pan. Man, that thing dripped oil for ever, there must have been another 50 - 60ml draining out right there. Then when I split the cases, there was still oil draining out, what a bloody mess!

Long story short, there is oil in the motor that won't come out, it gets caught on things and doesn't drain perfectly. So don't worry about it not draining everything.

I agree with what everyone has said, but, what they're all forgetting is once you have oil in there, and drain a specific amount, let's say 50ml is always present. So you put in exactly 700ml. Actually now there is 750ml in the transmission, no concern. You run the bike and drain the oil. Assuming there are NO LEAKS like on the counter shaft, you SHOULD get 700 ml back out. If not that 50ml went somewhere and it's not stuck inside the cases, remember that first 50ml? So if no leaks and you measure correctly the only place it has gone is through the wet side crankcase seal. Not good and is "telling" you something.

jersey_devil, on 18 May 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Jersey:  Good point.  What would be some of the signs of a crankcase seal leak?  Someone mentioned to me that my sparkplug threads had a good amount of oil on them and it might be from a crankcase seal leak.

Tye: I would change your oil more then once a month, especially on a small bore ktm where your constantly slipping the clutch.  After a good hard practice or race my clutch cover is almost as hot as the pipe.  Once oil gets hot enough it starts deteriorating, not to mention the metal shavings, dirt/debris and water that might seap in if you pressure wash or ride in sandy/muddy conditioins.  I can tell when my oil is starting to go bad, the clutch isn't as smooth and shifting seems to be just a tiny bit harder.  A $5.00 oil change is well worth it to me.

Edited by maxamillion125, 18 May 2012 - 07:32 AM.

I didn't go into details since i am supposed to be working, but that was my reasoning for saying to check it each time for consistency. This could give you an early indication of an internal leak, as JD said.

Good point JD.

jersey_devil, on 18 May 2012 - 06:07 AM, said:

Sorry, you'd have to pull your clutch cover off and leave the bike sitting on its side for at least an hour to get anywhere near all the oil out. There is so much oil caught in different chambers, its very difficult to get it all out. I usually just unscrew the drain plugs and tilt the bike over and once its down to drops, I plug it up and throw new oil in. If you pulled apart a 2 stroke motor, after draining ALL the oil out, it would still have a considerable amount of oil in it when you cracked the cases. Been there, done that MANY times. I haven't bothered to measure how much, but 50ml seems about right.

maxamillion125, on 18 May 2012 - 07:31 AM, said:

I don't use junky oil in my gearbox, I use only synthetic oil designed for use in gearbox with wet clutches. It doesn't deteriorate anywhere near what people think it does. The redline gearbox oil that I've used in the past, it wasn't even dirty when I pulled it out after 6 days of riding (12 hrs). It was a bright green color and came out the same way it went in. Heck, even the Motul V300 I've used before as well, that stuff looks the same going in as going out.

I use to build racing 4 stroke motors, we use to ride about 300 - 400 miles per race weekend (4 - 5 hrs) and the oil never changed color with temp's around 250 - 280f. Extremely high RPM's (12k) and honestly, I got tired of changing my oil every race weekend. I'd literally run the motor until the oil started to change color in the sight glass. Even then, I'd drain it after a month, about 1000 miles (12hrs) and you could still see through the oil!

So anyway, from my personal experience having built and raced 4 stroke race bikes for 2 years and now 2 stroke motocross bikes for 2 years, you aren't doing any damage by running a good synthetic gearbox oil and running it for at least a few weekends of riding. I have pain-stakingly gone through my motors and checked for oil related wear and have never seen it.

I change my oil every use, ya I know it's overkill so what;) I know for a fact I do not have any seal leaks of any kind. I have wondered the same thing. Where does that oil go. I never get the full 700ml I put in back out and I always measure exactly 700ml to put in.
Joe.......

Tye: I use Honda HP transmission oil and after 8 gallons of gas which is around 8-10hrs of ride this is what it looks like compared to fresh Honda HP oil.  I'm very hard on my clutch and use it coming out of probably 80% of corners.  I would never go more then15 hours on the same oil.  Some guys like JoeM change it after every ride just for the sake of knowing they have good clean oil, others may run an entire season on the same oil, its a personal choice, but I would rather err on the side of cauton.


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To each is own I guess.

I build the motors I abuse so I know what each bearing, every clutch plate and gear looks like. When I build my motors, I go through everything and look for wear and honestly, I never see any. These motors can take a great deal of abuse, MUCH more then the manual or other owners let on. You can do any maintenance cycle you wish, but over-doing it is just a waste of time and money. I guess if you have the excess time to do oil changes, thats totally kool. Sadly, I don't have any excess time, I write on the forums whilst I'm at work, when I get home I'm slammed busy. I take the time to put a clean air filter in before each ride because I have 4 of them on a rotating schedule. I also lubricate my chain and set my tire pressures. I'd rather make sure my fuel tank isn't full of dirt, I'd rather make sure my fuel/oil mix is perfect and that my air filter isn't clogged.

Gotta remember, the average 4 stroke rider is changing their oil after many months of riding, if they even know the bike needs to have an oil change... If they can get away with it, heh... for sure we can get away with more then 10 hrs.

Ohh and that Honda oil is probably pretty shady. Try putting standard 4 stroke motorcycle oil in it like Motul V300. I think you'll have a very different experience, I know if I use junky oil things get clunky quick.

Edited by tye1138, 18 May 2012 - 03:50 PM.

JoeMcLaughlin, on 18 May 2012 - 01:24 PM, said:

Do you pop the inspection screw out when you fill it? If you don't get 700ml out, you shouldn't be putting 700ml in...

I usually take out the inspection screw as I'm filling and when I get around 650ml, it starts to drip down the case and then I put the screw back in again.

tye1138, on 18 May 2012 - 03:48 PM, said:

Pro Honda HP is easily one of the top 3 gearbox oils most KTM guys or mechanics would recommend, i'm not sure what you've heard.  Do some research, before you call Pro Honda HP junk oil....

max, I wonder if these bikes without Tstats run hotter than bikes with them.  I abused my 05 200E as much as I do my current bike and this one goes thru oil like nuthin.  It seems to build much more heat in the tranny than my other bike.  I could go a couple/three months on my 05 and it still looked ok, but now I go a few rides, about half the time and it is toast.

I used to run Wally World Dexron with good results, but this tranny burned it up in one ride.  I now run the Rotella T6 Synthetic and it seems to be working better, but I still have to change it more often.

maxamillion125, on 18 May 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

I know quite a bit about oil and honestly, gearbox oil has no place in the transmission of a KTM 2 stroke. You want lower additive oil, stuff that flows very freely through the bearings and in the clutch assembly, not something that cakes onto the individual components. KTM recommends 10w30 standard synthetic motorcycle oil. I've actually bought the motorx oil they recommend and it worked well, no complaints.

Honda HP gearbox oil is standard mineral oil, which is being made by the lowest bidder. In the past, its been a stellar product because whoever Honda was using for their chemicals, was doing a good job. Today things are very different and we can make synthetic oils a lot cheaper and more available to the public. The cheaper companies have taken over the production of off-brand chemicals and thats why the Honda gear oil of today, is not the same as yesteryear. Again, people just keep using the same shit and never realize that there is better...

If you do some research online, you will find a vast majority of people discussing 2 stroke oil's and most of them agree, standard fully synthetic 10w30 oil's seem to work the best. Most synthetic oil's are NOT fully synthetic, they use a hybrid of cheap base stock and sprinkle in some esters for good luck. LOL. The oil you should be using is fully-synthetic V spec stuff, that is fully ester based. This oil is very expensive, but it is extremely tolerant of high temperatures. Ester based oil's are the key in my view to proper lubrication and without that, you're just wasting money in my view.

The best ester based synthetic oils are made by Amsoil, Mobile, Shell and Motul, quality is in that order as well. If you put a bottle of standard Amsoil 10w30 motorcycle oil (with wet clutch protection) in your 2 stroke gearbox, I bet it won't change viscosity or lubricating ability in 60 hours of riding. I have performed test after test with a multitude of oils in my race bikes and have come up simple answers... buy the best and you get the best results. I wouldn't trust any oil not distributed by an oil company nor one that has anything else but a V certification on the back.

I've got over 30 years in industry dealing with machinery and lubrication.
I have to say, tye1138's advice sounds pretty good and matches my own training and experience.
I'd like to mention that regular mineral oils are prone to about 10% evaporation loses with time and heat.
Additionally, some oil is atomized and lost through the breather,  quite a bit in a 4 stroke, much less in a 2 stroke.
My 125 uses a noticable amount of oil after a 2-3 hour highway run at high rpm, perhaps as much as 100ml.
Exactly how I do not know, but it is much easier on oil with easy trail riding.

Seals are not absolute. Some oil does usually make it by.
This is a photo of a 2003 KTM 250 that does not leak or drip any oil, and yet after a hard 3 day ride, you can see an oil film in the dried mud wash. All the more reason to change the oil after submersion.

Yup, some lose is normal.

maxamillion125, on 18 May 2012 - 04:13 PM, said:

I like Honda filter oil and 2 stroke tranny oil. It seems to work well for us.

Edited by Ralphtogo, 20 May 2012 - 04:11 PM.