So I've been trying to research converting an old truck to run on ethanol. Then it hit me... Is there any way to convert a dr650 to run on an alternative fuel? Bio Diesel, Ethanol, or the like? If fuel ever gets to expensive or unavailable, I'd like to still be able to ride.
Anyone ever done this? Anyone have any idea if it can be done?
Possible to convert 650 to run on ethanol?
Started by
mattheritage
, May 04 2012 12:33 PM
25 replies to this topic
Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:00 PM
I have never done the conversion before. The power/efficiency it is likely a step backwards but the key is getting the air fuel ratio correct for ethanol (about 25% larger for needle jet, main jet and secondary) the compression ratio of the 650 is on the low side for ethanol (14-15 to 1)but it should run. A hang up the conversion faces is it will not be a dual fuel like E85 compatible fuel injected motors. All of this is fairly basic for some one converting the other vehicles you list unless you are buying ready made kits for them. I am unaware of any kits to do the conversion for any bike.
Here is a link with the basic information.
http://running_on_al...d.com/id32.html
Here is a link with the basic information.
http://running_on_al...d.com/id32.html
Edited by uspsamaster, 04 May 2012 - 03:04 PM.
Posted 04 May 2012 - 11:34 PM
I can't tell you how to convert your bike, but I could help you convert your thinking
Fuel is a patheticly cheap commodity. You do realise bottled water is more expensive? a chocolate bar and a bottle of water would substitute for what 80km of highway riding?
either 1) cut back on the silly things that become 'loose change items'
or 2) earn slightly more and go nuts.
The rate of exchange on fuel is still very low for what you get out of it. I can't fathom how people can believe it's a great expense, even on a minimum wage you can afford to burn as much of it as you want if you get your priorities right. Other things in life - which we never question the cost of - are so much more expensive and would be better served putting focus there if you want to be more financially efficient
Fuel is a patheticly cheap commodity. You do realise bottled water is more expensive? a chocolate bar and a bottle of water would substitute for what 80km of highway riding?
either 1) cut back on the silly things that become 'loose change items'
or 2) earn slightly more and go nuts.
The rate of exchange on fuel is still very low for what you get out of it. I can't fathom how people can believe it's a great expense, even on a minimum wage you can afford to burn as much of it as you want if you get your priorities right. Other things in life - which we never question the cost of - are so much more expensive and would be better served putting focus there if you want to be more financially efficient
Edited by qwerty1234, 04 May 2012 - 11:35 PM.
Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:09 AM
I like your thinking mattheritage. I converted an old lawn mower to run on alcohol and it ran fine. I don't think you could convert to bio diesel as diesel runs in a compression type engine which the 650 engine is not (now the KLR comes in a military version which has a diesel engine). Anyway, as uspsamaster has mentioned, E85 would be a different type of thing as the bike is not fuel injected, however i can't see why you could not jet the carburetor to run on only E85. At this point in time i am purchasing a kit to convert my fuel injected truck to be "flex fuel" compatable. It will allow me to run gasoline or gasoline /alcohol blends up to E85 (which is 85 pecent alcohol and 15 percent gasoline). Good luck and please post up if you actually make the conversion.
Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:36 AM
qwerty1234, on 04 May 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:
I can't tell you how to convert your bike, but I could help you convert your thinking
Fuel is a patheticly cheap commodity. You do realise bottled water is more expensive? a chocolate bar and a bottle of water would substitute for what 80km of highway riding?
either 1) cut back on the silly things that become 'loose change items'
or 2) earn slightly more and go nuts.
The rate of exchange on fuel is still very low for what you get out of it. I can't fathom how people can believe it's a great expense, even on a minimum wage you can afford to burn as much of it as you want if you get your priorities right. Other things in life - which we never question the cost of - are so much more expensive and would be better served putting focus there if you want to be more financially efficient
Fuel is a patheticly cheap commodity. You do realise bottled water is more expensive? a chocolate bar and a bottle of water would substitute for what 80km of highway riding?
either 1) cut back on the silly things that become 'loose change items'
or 2) earn slightly more and go nuts.
The rate of exchange on fuel is still very low for what you get out of it. I can't fathom how people can believe it's a great expense, even on a minimum wage you can afford to burn as much of it as you want if you get your priorities right. Other things in life - which we never question the cost of - are so much more expensive and would be better served putting focus there if you want to be more financially efficient
Posted 05 May 2012 - 08:37 AM
uspsamaster, on 04 May 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:
I have never done the conversion before. The power/efficiency it is likely a step backwards but the key is getting the air fuel ratio correct for ethanol (about 25% larger for needle jet, main jet and secondary) the compression ratio of the 650 is on the low side for ethanol (14-15 to 1)but it should run. A hang up the conversion faces is it will not be a dual fuel like E85 compatible fuel injected motors. All of this is fairly basic for some one converting the other vehicles you list unless you are buying ready made kits for them. I am unaware of any kits to do the conversion for any bike.
Here is a link with the basic information.
http://running_on_al...d.com/id32.html
Here is a link with the basic information.
http://running_on_al...d.com/id32.html
Posted 05 May 2012 - 02:25 PM
qwerty1234, on 04 May 2012 - 11:34 PM, said:
I can't tell you how to convert your bike, but I could help you convert your thinking
Fuel is a patheticly cheap commodity. You do realise bottled water is more expensive? a chocolate bar and a bottle of water would substitute for what 80km of highway riding?
either 1) cut back on the silly things that become 'loose change items'
or 2) earn slightly more and go nuts.
The rate of exchange on fuel is still very low for what you get out of it. I can't fathom how people can believe it's a great expense, even on a minimum wage you can afford to burn as much of it as you want if you get your priorities right. Other things in life - which we never question the cost of - are so much more expensive and would be better served putting focus there if you want to be more financially efficient
Fuel is a patheticly cheap commodity. You do realise bottled water is more expensive? a chocolate bar and a bottle of water would substitute for what 80km of highway riding?
either 1) cut back on the silly things that become 'loose change items'
or 2) earn slightly more and go nuts.
The rate of exchange on fuel is still very low for what you get out of it. I can't fathom how people can believe it's a great expense, even on a minimum wage you can afford to burn as much of it as you want if you get your priorities right. Other things in life - which we never question the cost of - are so much more expensive and would be better served putting focus there if you want to be more financially efficient
It's not about the cost of fuel as it sits now. Money isn't really a concern for me. 2 years ago I was unemployed and BARELY scraping by. IE actually took seat cushions up to fine enough money for diapers at one point. So I do indeed know what it's like to not have enough for frivolous fuel spending. But I digress, as this isn't the point of my post.
As I said, I'm not worried about the cost of fuel right now. What I'm worried about is the cost of fuel in an emergency. When supplies for whatever reason dry up. When something beyond our imagination (in our present cushy world), happens and we are forced to live without the conveniences we now enjoy. I'm no a doomsdayist (that a word?), but I do think being prepared for circumstances beyond our control is one thing that IS in our control.
On that note, this is about what if. I'd like to find what sorts of problems I'd face in the conversion. What all I'd have to change out to use with both gas and ethanol, and what would have to be replaced completely.
What if....
Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:03 PM
uspsamaster, on 04 May 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:
I have never done the conversion before. The power/efficiency it is likely a step backwards but the key is getting the air fuel ratio correct for ethanol (about 25% larger for needle jet, main jet and secondary) the compression ratio of the 650 is on the low side for ethanol (14-15 to 1)but it should run. A hang up the conversion faces is it will not be a dual fuel like E85 compatible fuel injected motors. All of this is fairly basic for some one converting the other vehicles you list unless you are buying ready made kits for them. I am unaware of any kits to do the conversion for any bike.
Here is a link with the basic information.
http://running_on_al...d.com/id32.html
Here is a link with the basic information.
http://running_on_al...d.com/id32.html
Yeah, everything I've read says there will be a loss of power and fuel economy. Simple fact is that ethanol does not have the energy per volume that gasoline has. That, really is a non issue for me though. The point of my looking into this is that imho, SOME power is better than NO power. I'd like to be able to run the bike on straight ethanol that I can make in my garage. My thought was that I could switch out all the rubber components to components made with material able to withstand ethanol, put a high compression piston/cam in, and re jet to to optimum output.
Keep in mind, my intention is not to do this to my much loved everyday DR650. I plan to do it to an older bike, work out the kinks, and have a conversion plan for the good bike if I ever need it.
Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:49 PM
So afte looking more into doig something like this, it appears I would have to do the following.
Swap out all rubber components.
High compression piston/cam.
Rejet.
I'm wondering If I'd need to put a sleeve in the piston that would withstand corrosion better? That would go for the other metal parts too I spose... Ethanol can be pretty corrosive from what I understand. Anyone know anything about that aspect of it?
Swap out all rubber components.
High compression piston/cam.
Rejet.
I'm wondering If I'd need to put a sleeve in the piston that would withstand corrosion better? That would go for the other metal parts too I spose... Ethanol can be pretty corrosive from what I understand. Anyone know anything about that aspect of it?
Edited by mattheritage, 05 May 2012 - 05:58 PM.
Posted 05 May 2012 - 05:53 PM
ethanol itself isn't corrosive but it attracts water which causes the corrosion associated with it. You could run a little bowl or something lower than the carb so the water settles there like they have on old tractors and stuff.
Posted 06 May 2012 - 06:20 AM
Actually thinking more about this it would suck. The reason I say that is the efficiency. We have little tanks. You'd have to fill up ALL the time, and it's not like it's on every street corner like petro.
Posted 06 May 2012 - 09:47 PM
If you are preparing for the zombie apocolypse and are that heavily concerned with fuel economy that you would partially ruin your DR650 in the process at great expense, why not buy a 125/250?
Seriously this is tin foil hat stuff...
Seriously this is tin foil hat stuff...
Posted 07 May 2012 - 02:55 AM
Ruining a DR-650 .... tin foil hat stuff ...
(... play something ... sad.)
(... play something ... sad.)
Posted 08 May 2012 - 08:50 AM
Jhawins, on 05 May 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:
One site I was lookin at was claiming about a %40 power increase on old brittish bikes they were converting. And it wasn't a seller so no bias there... Not sure of I believe it at all, but its a nice thought.
Posted 09 May 2012 - 07:44 AM
The best solution would be to go EFI. Then not only can you run alternative fuels but better fuel milage too. There are those that have built EFI from scratch for the DR650. There's also the Ecotrons EFI kit project. It can be done.
Posted 10 May 2012 - 04:34 AM
uspsamaster, on 08 May 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:
The BTU of E100 (ethanol) is about 76000 vs about 114000 for gas, meaning the potential energy for gas is higher given equal efficiency. much of the difference can be negated, if the engine is built for the E100, ie higher compression, more advanced spark, optimum jetting, etc. To the original poster, if that is what you want to do with your DR by all means, go for it. Do us a favor and do a write up on it for anyone else considering doing the conversion. Obviously many of us have at least thought about even if it wasn't practical for most of us, times change and not everyone's situation is the same. If Ethanol stays the same price and gas gets up to $10 per gallon we all might be commuting on Ethanol and save the "good stuff" for our high performance toys that spend most of their time in the garage. Don't sweat the people morning the loss of a DR, Suzuki has built and continues to build as many as they can sell. It is not something rare or collectable.
My plan is to get all the information I can, find E100 friendly parts, etc, and then convert an older bike. Get it dialed in, and then decied if I want to convert my bike, or just have parts on hand to do a conversion if I ever need to. I would like to convert to EFI, and then have the option of switching back and forth. If that could be done it would be the best way to go I'd think.
I'm not really worried about the nay sayers. You have to expect that when you ask a how to question on a site like this that a good portion of the responders are going to tell you how dumb your idea is instead of simply offering relevant information. Thanks for the words of encouragement though.
Posted 10 May 2012 - 06:17 AM
rcthirty, on 09 May 2012 - 07:44 AM, said:
The best solution would be to go EFI. Then not only can you run alternative fuels but better fuel milage too. There are those that have built EFI from scratch for the DR650. There's also the Ecotrons EFI kit project. It can be done.
From your sig it looks like you've done the Ecotrons EFI kit? I'm looking at doing EFI. How was it to install? Run into any problems? Hows it run after installation? Happy with it, worth the money and all that?
Posted 11 May 2012 - 03:46 AM
mattheritage, on 10 May 2012 - 06:17 AM, said:
From your sig it looks like you've done the Ecotrons EFI kit? I'm looking at doing EFI. How was it to install? Run into any problems? Hows it run after installation? Happy with it, worth the money and all that?
Bottom line is it's close but we still need tweaking. I'm happy with it and I think it's worth it, but mine is for street and fuel milage is a big concern for me. A carb would certainly be easier to fix if you broke down in the woods.
Posted 15 May 2012 - 09:09 PM
On the DR there really is not that many rubber parts to switch out. The fuel line, float bowl "o-ring", and have a good supply of needle valves for the float bowl/fuel inlet. One thing nobody has mentioned is that running on alcohol the engine will run cooler. This means there will be more blow by until the engine warms up and the rings have expanded and sealed. The racers running alcohol have to change the oil much more frequently than those running gasoline becuse of this and because the blow by is much more acidic. For those that think running a fuel injection system with alcohol will regain the power lost in switching from gasoline you are not thinking correctly. Fuel injection does not replace the btu's the energy difference between gasoline and alcohol. It doesn't matter whether you use a carb or FI. It will require much more fuel to come close the the power level that's available with gasoline. You have to jet up. You also have drivablility issues. The bike won't run for crap on a carb until its warmed up. That is one area where fuel injection is advantageous. Of course you have to have code for the engine management computer that can deal with such wide parameters.
Posted 04 July 2012 - 11:22 PM
Hi,
I'm planning on E85 for my recently acquired '86 XL600R.
Who's done this already? What's the news?
I'm just sharing my plan, and what I've learned so far...any informed or experienced advice anyone can offer would be great.
I'm planning:
1. Advancing ignition timing - 3deg retarded of detonation (estimating 18 deg BTDC)
2. Anodizing the carb bodies, Type I, Chromic Acid (though many hot rod and drag racing forums say the corrosion is a myth - unless there's a lot of moisture present)
3. Re-Jet, all circuits - possibly swap to a Mikuni TM-38 - float needle with neoprene tip, floats made of HDPE. Viton fuel line.
4. Fuel capacity Increase - Clarke 4.2 gal
5. Engine - 12:1 static compression ratio (piston, rings, wrist pin)
6. Metal screen fuel filter
----
these are just extra steps to complete the package - not E85 necessity
7. 'XRs Only' exhaust (headers, collector, muffler)
8. Balanced Crank, knife rod
What I'm debating (please chime in if you think it's needed for alcohol):
Cam
Porting
titanium valve springs
What I've read is that many people really hate ethanol. It's the devil. It corrodes or dissolves everything, your power and mileage drop 30%, and it starves people all over the world and poisons every fish on the planet.
Of course it does.
What I've ALSO read is that while it consumes 30% more fuel, you can gain back that mileage if you take steps to make your engine E85 compatible with compression and timing. If you have more power with more fuel, you use less wrist to get there, and, subsequently, more smiling with more wrist...the guys on the drag racing forums all accept the power gains as very real, and the occasional genius / mad scientist on the forms points out that the corrosion is from water.
Corroding aluminum - it's from water...and all the hot rod guys say this is very rare, even on their streetable daily drivers.
Dissolving plastic - yes...unless you know there are many, many kinds of plastic, and some of them are fine (HDPE, Teflon, Tefzel, Polypropylene)
Power drop - not true. You gain 20% with timing and compression - not possible with pump gas!
Mileage drop - true. You need to use more fuel. I've read 30%
Starves people - Only if you make it out of food...like pianos kill elephants if you make them out of ivory. Look up what petroleum does, while you're at it.
Poisons fish - Yes, if you make it out of corn, which you really don't have to (and shouldn't) Agribusiness uses a lot of Nitrogen fertilizer on mono-crop farms, which washes into the gulf and grows a dead zone of fish.
That's what I've learned so far. I hope this helps. When I get things under way, I'll be sure to share progress and results.
I'm planning on E85 for my recently acquired '86 XL600R.
Who's done this already? What's the news?
I'm just sharing my plan, and what I've learned so far...any informed or experienced advice anyone can offer would be great.
I'm planning:
1. Advancing ignition timing - 3deg retarded of detonation (estimating 18 deg BTDC)
2. Anodizing the carb bodies, Type I, Chromic Acid (though many hot rod and drag racing forums say the corrosion is a myth - unless there's a lot of moisture present)
3. Re-Jet, all circuits - possibly swap to a Mikuni TM-38 - float needle with neoprene tip, floats made of HDPE. Viton fuel line.
4. Fuel capacity Increase - Clarke 4.2 gal
5. Engine - 12:1 static compression ratio (piston, rings, wrist pin)
6. Metal screen fuel filter
----
these are just extra steps to complete the package - not E85 necessity
7. 'XRs Only' exhaust (headers, collector, muffler)
8. Balanced Crank, knife rod
What I'm debating (please chime in if you think it's needed for alcohol):
Cam
Porting
titanium valve springs
What I've read is that many people really hate ethanol. It's the devil. It corrodes or dissolves everything, your power and mileage drop 30%, and it starves people all over the world and poisons every fish on the planet.
Of course it does.
What I've ALSO read is that while it consumes 30% more fuel, you can gain back that mileage if you take steps to make your engine E85 compatible with compression and timing. If you have more power with more fuel, you use less wrist to get there, and, subsequently, more smiling with more wrist...the guys on the drag racing forums all accept the power gains as very real, and the occasional genius / mad scientist on the forms points out that the corrosion is from water.
Corroding aluminum - it's from water...and all the hot rod guys say this is very rare, even on their streetable daily drivers.
Dissolving plastic - yes...unless you know there are many, many kinds of plastic, and some of them are fine (HDPE, Teflon, Tefzel, Polypropylene)
Power drop - not true. You gain 20% with timing and compression - not possible with pump gas!
Mileage drop - true. You need to use more fuel. I've read 30%
Starves people - Only if you make it out of food...like pianos kill elephants if you make them out of ivory. Look up what petroleum does, while you're at it.
Poisons fish - Yes, if you make it out of corn, which you really don't have to (and shouldn't) Agribusiness uses a lot of Nitrogen fertilizer on mono-crop farms, which washes into the gulf and grows a dead zone of fish.
That's what I've learned so far. I hope this helps. When I get things under way, I'll be sure to share progress and results.
