longtimelurker, on 30 April 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

You are right, but that doesn't mean we can talk or dream about it.

yamahammer426, on 30 April 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Probably is ignorant because many have not even seen any big bore 2 strokes or were little kids when there was some being produced.  Really anyone that's had a big bore 2 stroke and raced it knows what it's all about. If you haven't you're clueless...but for most it's just not their fault that they don't know. I still miss my 82 430xc Husky. That was a 6 speed 230 lb torque monster that I rode in the toughest slow tight trails and still could go 100 mph. I also never had to worry about radiators, waterpumps, seals, boiling over blah blah blah. It's still funny to me that the 430 at the time was not considered very fast in comparison to thebig bore bikes of the time.  It was kinda like a very fast 250.. It scared the heck out of me...and that's what I loved.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider, 30 April 2012 - 11:47 AM.

longtimelurker, on 30 April 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

How do you know? Before 98 or so there were no 4 strokes competitively racing... Look at the turn back to 2 strokes now and the disgust over the higher cost of 4 strokes . It's coming back around...We wouldn't even be having this conversation if it wasn't.

You wouldn't have sites like this:

http://twostrokemotocross.com/about/

Tell me you or anyone else wouldn't want to  take a spin on one of these..

Edited by hawaiidirtrider, 30 April 2012 - 12:14 PM.

hawaiidirtrider, on 30 April 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Ya there are all kinds of sites about 2 strokes.  I don't know, it's a very well educated guess.  This convo has been going on for over 7 years and will go on as long as the "____ oil is better than ____ oil".

It is funny that you talk about costs yet you show a vid of a $10K bike.

Edited by longtimelurker, 30 April 2012 - 12:16 PM.

that bike dont cost 10k to rebuild

many of us tried 4 strokes and went back

Ya maybe my first post was in jest, but seriously, I have had this conversation with many people, and to be fair, the two stroke IN THE RIGHT HANDS is awesome,

BUT, if you take 100 racers and let em do 100 laps on a 4t and 2t they will consistently be faster on the 4t, fact!

We (dirt bike racers) want anything that will consistenly make us faster, suspension, engine mods, fitness, whatever we can buy, and we sometimes spend big bucks on it, the fact is more people are consistenly faster on 4t's, so there should be no question which bike is 'better', the 4t will make you faster, for longer

There's no need for an unlimited class limited to only 2 strokes. The 450's have more power than all but a few of the best pros can really handle. They are very excessive machines. What is needed, and what would satisfy most including myself is very simple. 250cc class, and open. Regardless of stroke...

longtimelurker, on 30 April 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

That's a maxed out bike with everything... and the motor will last forever compared to a 4 stroke of the same caliber... You could easily make your own 500 upgraded for a lot less if you wanted...but really does it matter? If you want to stay riding a four stroke great!  But have you ever ridden a good 500 2 stroke ? I'd bet not...

You could just get a used one for a bit cheaper if you didn't want to work..
http://www.serviceho...m/preowned.html

Stu2, on 30 April 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

Maybe it will make you faster for longer for now...but the 2 stroke hasn't been developed with I'd guess less than half the money that's been thrown a a 4 stroke in R and D. ..but even as it is look at how the factory race teams have said they would not show up for racing if 2 stroke 250's were allowed to race against 4 stroke 250's for AMA supercross... I can see that the factories are protecting their investments in 4 strokes...but  2 strokes are knocking on the door..especially with the 2 strokes being allowed in amateur 250 racing....   You telling me that guys can't ride a 2 stroke 250 consistently fast as a 4 stroke ? what about RC and Chad Reed and Mcgrath and all the others that rode 250 2 strokes in the pro ranks before 450's? They'd be on just about the same lap times at the begining of the race to the end.. sometimes later laps would be faster.  Sure we all aren't pros but bottom line a 2 stroke is super fun to ride...and I like 4 strokes...but sometimes I need to get off my 4 stroke because I need a 2 stroke fix.

Edited by hawaiidirtrider, 30 April 2012 - 01:11 PM.

Stu2, on 30 April 2012 - 12:29 PM, said:

LMAO somebody gave me a lecture for quoting you:

hawaiidirtrider, on 30 April 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

That is what a 500AF from Service Honda costs.

The 500AF is available with numerous options including cylinder porting, suspension and many others. We can custom build the bike to fit your specific needs, all with the quality you expect from Service Honda. The price of this very special motorcycle is only $10,499.

Yes I have ridden big bore 2T's and ride a 2T now so I guess your points are invalid.  I am not arguing which is better, the fact that you post a big bore 2T motorcycle that costs upward of $10K while arguing how much a 4T costs is funny IMO.

longtimelurker, on 30 April 2012 - 01:49 PM, said:

most have been very clear, it's the rebuild costs where the concern is,  not the up-front costs

MrBlahh, on 30 April 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

How much for rebuild costs?  $750 - $1000 right?  New 450 is $8K.  How many rebuilds do you get for the difference in price?  How often do you have to rebuild?  Lots of variables.

longtimelurker, on 30 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

LOL  you cant be serious with that number

my new gasgas was not 10k that's for sure,  I've owned 500's and for me a modern enduro 250-300 is just right.    On mine I can swap cylinders it's a direct swap

Edited by MrBlahh, 30 April 2012 - 01:58 PM.

MrBlahh, on 30 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

You didn't follow did you?  We are discussing a Service Honda AF500.  I was talking about the cost to rebuild a 450.

MrBlahh, on 30 April 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

Yes you are right for your particular case. But Longtime is correct there a lots of variables and that is the problem with the hopeless 2T vs 4T chatter. Plenty of room for advocates on either side to "fit the variables" in support of the preferences.

more parts simply cost more to fix there is no way around that

same applies with weight more is heavier

sometimes people cant see the obvious

I actually think 2 strokes represent some of the best bikes in our sport right now.  European manufacturers are making offroad bikes in the 125/144/200/250/300cc variants that are pretty amazing pieces of machinery.  the real issue is AMA pro motocross and supercross; none of which most of us ever ride, or will ever ride.  I for one would like to see the premier class become a true open class and see what technology rises to the top.  It would be hard to argue against the 2 stroke in this context.  For some context, I ride a "heavy, overweight pig" as its been so obtusely described and don't plan on changing anytime soon; but that has to do more with my multiple use proclivities than to say I "prefer" either engine configuration.

MrBlahh, on 30 April 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

I agree you are having a hard time seeing the obvious.

longtimelurker, on 30 April 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

+1 Ships in the night I guess.