Lead Head, on 19 March 2012 - 01:42 PM, said:

I only picked 50 as an arbitrary number. These seams to be a big spread as to the thoughts on piston replacement.

Dklassen, on 18 March 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Lead Head, on 18 March 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

EIther way the idea is to find out if it really does need to be changed that often. Granted my sample pool for the experiment is small... 1.... but I hope to see some good data.

I have never used shell, and will never use shell, Saw to many motors come in with excessive motor wear and despot build up running Rotella. in once case I worked on a motor where the computer logged that the motor had good oil pressure, but still seized. at tear down we found that the motor had almost no oil any where... but the oil pan. come to find out that deposits had built in the oil passages and clogged them AFTER the pressure transducer and caused the motor to run dry with out the computer knowing it. Go figure they where running rotella. sorry but that oil is sub par in my book. I don't want to start the amsoil war but I have been a user/dealer sense 1998. I run it in every thing from my generator to my truck to my cars to my toys and have never had a blown motor in any thing. I use 0W-40 because i run in a cooler climate and often start ridding while there is still frost on the ground in the morning. as for the filter I always use the WIX. I'm not sure what stock filters, filter down to but the WIX Ea filter goes to 10-12 microns. I laugh when i see people run the stainless steel one that is only good to 34 microns. Particles as small as 2 microns can damage a motor and if the shear really is as high as you say it is then filtering as low as possible is of paramount importance. there is a balance thought, to small and you sacrifice oil pressure. After starting this thread I found an oil cooler that I'm going to add to the bike also. On that I may add an oil pressure gauge or at least a port for a gauge to be put on for testing.

I'm ordering the Jagg Cooler as I type this. (here)

Oil pressure gauge would not tell much on a CRF450 besides whether the pump was working or not. It will not indicate bearing health, as every single bearing (except the piston pin, which is splash-lubed) is roller/ball bearing. The bike probably at most makes 6-10 PSI of oil pressure.

As far as Rotella being sub-par, hundreds of millions of miles on rigs (I know of many running Rotella), and tens-of-thousands of hours put on it by dirt-bike and super-bike users says otherwise.

As to Amsoil, don't like the company, don't like how they market/sell their product, and don't like their product. That's all I'm saying to that.

Edited by Lead Head, 20 March 2012 - 06:48 AM.

Lead Head, on 20 March 2012 - 06:47 AM, said:

The gauge I was going to put on to see the difference between the pressure loss from running a low micron filter. I was even thinking of trying to find a way to put a large filter in there and get one that filters to even smaller micron number.

I'm the complete opposite of you on the shell/amsoil. And thats ok and understandable, but its all just preference, and in the end it really comes down to quality of maintenance by the user. I've seen cars go a long time on crap oil and others last only a year running the best of the best. I don't sell it to any one. I let them ask me for it. I take care of all my cars/trucks/toys and my extended families cars/trucks/toys, so i became a dealer to get better prices. But one of the big reasons I won't ever use any thing shell is their owners. I like to keep my money as much in the US as I can (Ironic that i own a honda, i know) and shell is Saudi Arabian company. AMSOIL is US owned and was started by a US Air force Pilot. Being a Iraq Vet and small business owner my self I support him and his company. so for me its a matter of principle more than any thing else.

IMHO I think that oil quality is not as vital as keeping a motor cool, jetted properly and a good clean oil filter.

The issue here is the volume of oil, not the quality. Think about it this way. If youve got 1 guy to do job X, he has a limited service if that job takes him 8 hours. If youve got 5 guys to do that same job, they can run for 40 hours total.

Go ahead and be the guinea pig though. Lots of us run Shell Rotella. Ive been running 15-40 Regular, non synthetic for 100+ hours. I change it about every five running hours.

What you'll probably find is the transmission oil is hammered clear out of spec. The straight cut gears in the trans shear the oil to shreads PDQ. The reason a lot  of us run the Rotella is its cheap and protects well. When I started running it, it still had the zinc and phosphorus in it that most oils dont have anymore because of the problems with the catalytic converters.

The main problem with your test is, that it measures the oil against what it was to start with. I guess if you assume the oil was good to start with and that its still good enough at 50% of its original capability its a valid test.

Its a tough comparison really, the powerstroke style engine vs. the slipper piston roller bearing engine. The skirts on the power stroke pistons are longer than a nuns robe, while the CRF piston skirt is short enough to even make Lindsey Lohan blush.

Shawn_Mc, on 20 March 2012 - 10:36 AM, said:

Love the comparison at the end! lol

"The main problem with your test is, that it measures the oil against what it was to start with. I guess if you assume the oil was good to start with and that its still good enough at 50% of its original capability its a valid test." I'm not quite sure what you mean here. At each interval I will change the oil completely. starting with fresh oil for each test going up incrementally in duration. 5 than 10 than 15, I just ordered 6 test kits so i can do the tranny at the same time i do the motor. I want to see just how fast oil is depleted and degraded. Every one says that the oil is hammered to a lower weight quickly and with out a doubt it is, but has any one tested it? I'm an engineer so i like hard numbers.

Once the test is over I'm adding an external Oil cooler to the bike to add volume (waiting to find out just how much) so that will also help extend the life of the oil. I really with the motor and transmission shared oil (at least for volume reasons) or that there would be another way to add volume to the transmission.

Ya, about 8 or 10 years ago we had a guy go through all this. He was an engineer too. He also did a lot of race tuning for guys in his area. What he found was that a Pro MX'r on a YZ250F could destroy the oil in 20 minutes. The YZ250F shares the engine oil with the trans, and they store it in the frame too. That was the surprising part.

Its the transmission that really hammers the oil out. And he tried lots of different oils too. He also found that synthetics held up the worst in the transmissions. His best results in the transmission were with Conventional 20/50's. Something about the branched chains being shorter and more stout to resist the shearing and shredding.

Roller bearings beat oil up differently than plain bearings to also. But I look forward to seeing your results.

To set this straight, 20w50 in tranny every five hours... and I want to say every ten on motor cause mine had like 8 on it nad it wasn't even dark. Trails mostly though.  I am asking opinions here,didn't see a good plac efor a question mark.  WHat do you want from me...I'm from kentucky...!

Edited by shanecarr, 20 March 2012 - 12:13 PM.

Shawn_Mc, on 20 March 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

Any thoughts on what could be done to extend the life of the trany oil? There is no pump correct?

I'm not so conceded with having to change oil in the field during the summer. thats easy but when I'm in 10' of snow and its 0*F out I'm not sure how easy that is going to be. lol I was thinking of some type of oil cooler/filter/resi that would mount to the top of my track subframe to hold more trany oil. But with out a built in pump I'm not sure how this will work... I thought about using a inline fuel pump and taping into the trany sump some how to pull oil in and out of the case. Remember Im using the bike on long trail rides not MX so adding 1 lbs to my 50-75lbs or camping gear is not such a big deal if it will extend the life of the bike dramatically.

I could see how rollers would could have different effect on oil then normal bearing, kind of like a grain smasher rolling pin type thing.

I've been doing some reading on Spur gears and the some studies done on their lubrication. They talk about how the sliding of the gear teeth during engagement and disengagement. in a report done by nasa for the the wind turbine industry they recommended using the highest viscosity oil possible. wind turbines run extremely high torque spur gears in their systems as helic would produce to much axial loading.

So what is the highest weight that people run? I was going to run the 0W-40 in the trany but now I'm thinking a much heaver oil is better. I may run a SAE 60 is the highest i could find that is still good with a wet clutch.

I wouldn't run anything higher than 20/50 in the trans because the clutch has to deal with it too. I dont think you'd have to change oil out on a ride or whatever. And if you're on a  ride mode thats more trail than race you'll be able to safely extend the interval.

A lot of us use the bike in MX. Its a different deal than a trail ride. If you were racing it in a HH or WORC's type thing that lasted 5+ hours, you wouldn't stop to change the oil and I think thats fine.

If the thing sits and idles for 15 minutes total during the interval thats not what Id call hard hours. But my bike rarely idles. Maybe a minute session. If there's a total of 8-10 minutes of idle time in my 5 hour change interval Id be really surprised.

Honda sells the Crf 450r as a competition machine, and are quoting the amount of time the piston will last and still produce PEAK power.
I.E., the average time the power would start to SLIGHTLY diminish if the bike was used at peak temps, under max load, in the power band, revved all the way to the rev limiter every shift. (Competition use). This is not every day, tooling aroung trail riding, or even play riding on a track. 6 hrs. is when they believe wear starts to compromise ring seal, at these high levels of use. This is not to say the piston won't last much longer than this, if ridden like most people do, when power would fall off at such a low rate you don't even notice it at 80 hrs.

No matter WHAT oil you run...

gotwings, on 21 March 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Solid points.

Shawn_Mc, on 20 March 2012 - 11:40 PM, said:

If the oil is rated for a wet clutch does the weight effect the clutch that much?

Shawn_Mc, on 22 March 2012 - 01:02 PM, said:

Very good points! but it will still be interesting to see how the life of the oil is effected. still waiting for my test kits and oil to arrive

Edited by MrDieselTwitch, 22 March 2012 - 01:29 PM.

Quote

I doubt youd find a "motorcycle" transmission oil thats heavier than a 20/50 engine oil. The gear oils are rated differently than engine oils so the wt's dont go straight across.

Shawn_Mc, on 22 March 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

AMSOIL SAE 60 Motorcycle oil, Wet Clutch Safe

If life were perfect I would suggest selling your R and buying an X. Sounds like it might be more suited to your style of riding.

Can't use the x for what I got the bike for. I'm running a track in the winter and the close ratio tranny of the r is the best way. That and I just don't like the x feel and look

MrDieselTwitch, on 18 March 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Just change it after every ride.  If you put 15 running hours on your bike on every ride, that is a long ride.  On a saturday out, I usually put about 3 running hours on the motor per my hour meter.

Dang i need that for mine i have an 01 f250 wat oils and filters do u use