85 replies to this topic

[Kev250 TT Bronze Member]

I think some people need to wake up a little bit with this stuff.  Saying that the rmz transmission is no better or worse than other bikes is simply not true.
All makes and models have their issues for sure, and they fall into a heirarchy in terms of what you can and can't live with.  Transmission failure and false neutrals are one of the problems that can lead to injury or worse.  I can say from experience that for one reason or another you'll hit a false neutral on any type of bike on the odd occasion, but if you own an RMZ you need to be extra vigilant.  If gear slip/neutrals changes from anything other than very seldom to frequent then you have a problem.  Think outside the box, drop the brand allegiance and either sort it or sell it.

[Chappers998 TT Bronze Member]

Kev250, on 03 April 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

I think some people need to wake up a little bit with this stuff.  Saying that the rmz transmission is no better or worse than other bikes is simply not true.
All makes and models have their issues for sure, and they fall into a heirarchy in terms of what you can and can't live with.  Transmission failure and false neutrals are one of the problems that can lead to injury or worse.  I can say from experience that for one reason or another you'll hit a false neutral on any type of bike on the odd occasion, but if you own an RMZ you need to be extra vigilant.  If gear slip/neutrals changes from anything other than very seldom to frequent then you have a problem.  Think outside the box, drop the brand allegiance and either sort it or sell it.

I f you take time to read the thread I don't think you'll find anybody is denying there are issues, instead we are discussing the best way to ensure longevity and avoidance of  problems. Now please run along and troll elsewhere.

[mog Get Help Now]

If your only replacing the shift drum spring the clutch stays together

[Kev250 TT Bronze Member]

Chappers998, on 04 April 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

I f you take time to read the thread I don't think you'll find anybody is denying there are issues, instead we are discussing the best way to ensure longevity and avoidance of  problems. Now please run along and troll elsewhere.

Jesus, short memory.  I'm not a troll, stop getting offended. Remember i posted my 08s worn cam barrel in the poll thread  I've seen your posts on mxtrax, you can be an antagonist yourself, so even if I was trying to wind people up (which I'm not) your not exactly above it.  Your bike has a weak transmission - you had to fix it.  I own an RMZ, and had to spend £800 ish on my old 08 to sort its gearbox, I love my suzukis, I'm not here to slate the brand.  If you knew what I did for a living you might perhaps take a bit more notice, but I'm not going to write that on an open forum.  Lets just say I work for a motorsport team and the gearbox department at my work were horrified at the (lack of) component quality in my rmz's gearbox when I showed them.  Spend 5 minutes phoning round some motox engine builders or even sifting through this forum and you will see that there are far too many RMZ gearboxes with issues across America/Britain/Europe.  Including a well respected engine tuner in America that tells it as it is.  The fact that suzuki keeps churning out bikes with transmission issues spells trouble for the company in more than one area.  I'd be interested to see what their figures are like for parts sale quantities on gearbox components - to see what the most frequent failure is.  It doesn't take much time or thought to design out these issues, but it takes £££$$$.

Edited by Kev250, 05 April 2012 - 01:44 AM.

[funkinalive TT Silver Member]

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

... If you knew what I did for a living you might perhaps take a bit more notice, but I'm not going to write that on an open forum.  Lets just say I work for a motorsport team and the gearbox department at my work...

lol! little bit of a contradiction in that statement. so you ARE an engine builder then? ive debated this topic to death and just dont feel like getting in to it right now, but heres the short and sweet version: all bikes have their problems! suzuki's included. the transmission problems encountered on the RMZ250 are not unheard of. unfortunately there is not nearly enough cases to merit it as a "chronic" problem (like the early CRF valves which i believe EVERYONE had problems with). some tranny's last, some dont. the question is WHY? if its such a simple and clear problem to you, then why haven't YOU recommended a fix yet?! ESPECIALLY if your an engine builder and see SO MANY rmz tranny issues? and if its true that youve seen SO MANY issues, Id LOVE to be in your position because if i could see half as many damaged trannies as you claim to have i would have at least come up with a theory to fix it instead of wasting my time on forums b@#^$ing about them...

[Chappers998 TT Bronze Member]

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Jesus, short memory.  I'm not a troll, stop getting offended. Remember i posted my 08s worn cam barrel in the poll thread  I've seen your posts on mxtrax, you can be an antagonist yourself, so even if I was trying to wind people up (which I'm not) your not exactly above it.  Your bike has a weak transmission - you had to fix it.  I own an RMZ, and had to spend £800 ish on my old 08 to sort its gearbox, I love my suzukis, I'm not here to slate the brand.  If you knew what I did for a living you might perhaps take a bit more notice, but I'm not going to write that on an open forum.  Lets just say I work for a motorsport team and the gearbox department at my work were horrified at the (lack of) component quality in my rmz's gearbox when I showed them.  Spend 5 minutes phoning round some motox engine builders or even sifting through this forum and you will see that there are far too many RMZ gearboxes with issues across America/Britain/Europe.  Including a well respected engine tuner in America that tells it as it is.  The fact that suzuki keeps churning out bikes with transmission issues spells trouble for the company in more than one area.  I'd be interested to see what their figures are like for parts sale quantities on gearbox components - to see what the most frequent failure is.  It doesn't take much time or thought to design out these issues, but it takes £££$$$.

Nope I remember the gear change drum, as for Mxtax the place is spoiled by and bunch of cretins and treated with less respect than here where I can have a sensible conversation without some moron chipping in.
I'm in no way offended although wonder what your post  was adding to the discussion.
I did extensive research into the gearbox issues on RMZs have informative conversions with Sam at Boretech the shop that sold me the bike, MVRD race team mechanics who admitted issues generally with wear on the gear teeth a hardening issue but he did admit their riders were very hard on the boxes but said they did replace the gears more often than they do on the Hondas they now run which they also have to replace along with most Suzuki dealers in the UK and many local owners only one of which had an issue but that bike has just had a brand new 2011 gearbox fitted and now sits in my garage as it happens, the same owner has had gearbox issues on other makes of bike possibly down to his size 13 plates. Everything that I have done to my bike is to ensure positive gear changes so the risk of wear from missed shifts is reduced.
The reason I bought the bike I did was because I trust Boretech and knew it's history, I'd never have bought an RMZ SH blind.
BTW I was a tech until 10 years ago but am now a marketing manager more money less hours not as much fun.
I don't really get what is so secretive about what you do for a living but that's your choice, my stepson works for Sumo racing but thankfully isn't bound by the official secrets act.

[Kev250 TT Bronze Member]

What in gods name are you smoking funkinalive!!!!  I don't know what your reading but if its my post you've put 2+2 together and got 199!

Why are you so sensitive about this, its like I'm attacking your kid?!  Look at your own poll - they are soft.  I don't think I've been anything other than constructive, just because its not what people want to hear doesn't mean its bad advice.  I think the real reason people on here get upset when you mention the problem is because they know that it blemishes the reputation of a good bike.  And above all else that is what suzuki should worry about.

funkinalive, on 05 April 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

lol! little bit of a contradiction in that statement. so you ARE an engine builder then? ive debated this topic to death and just dont feel like getting in to it right now, but heres the short and sweet version: all bikes have their problems! suzuki's included.

Preaching to the choir about other bikes having problems - I own a suzuki and a kawasaki.  As for me being an engine builder, I don't know where you got that from!  I said I work for a motorsport team (not in motocross by the way) and the guys in the gearbox department at work had a look at my 08 RMZ bits and were less than impressed.

funkinalive, on 05 April 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

If its such a simple and clear problem to you, then why haven't YOU recommended a fix yet?!

  Where did I say I was clear what the problem was (quote me) I actually said I'd like to see the figures on what part is failing the most - does that sound anything like its clear to me?  When I fixed mine I had a goosed cam barrel - so I replaced that.  The new ones seem to have different issues.

funkinalive, on 05 April 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

ESPECIALLY if your an engine builder and see SO MANY rmz tranny issues? and if its true that youve seen SO MANY issues, Id LOVE to be in your position because if i could see half as many damaged trannies as you claim to have

Again where did I say I was an engine builder, and where did I say I'd seen so many transmission failed RMZs??? (Quote me)  I said neither.  But in truth I actually would say there are way more transmission issues with RMZs than any other bike.

funkinalive, on 05 April 2012 - 03:14 AM, said:

i would have at least come up with a theory to fix it instead of wasting my time on forums b@#^$ing about them...

I did come up with a fix, my cam barrel was knackered due to material/treatment failure - I replaced it.  Judging by your post count I'd say I'm not the one wasting time on forums either.  Where am I b@#^$ing? (Again quote me)

[mog Get Help Now]

The suzuki does have a high failure rate on gearboxes,  you ask any morocross engine builder what brand comes in most for tranny issues and I will be its suzuki,  even on road bike stuff,  when mine went for repair there was a queue of rmz gears to be done before mine,  its valve train however is known to be much better than crf kxf etc,  the gearbox specialist I initially took mine to was a motocross rider ( did car gearboxes) and he also stated the materials used by suzuki were sub standard,  its just a fact,  and has been since the rm 125 days,  my friend had a 89 and that went though a gearbox in less than a season as did many others,  you can put your head in the sand and pretend but its a proven fact,  I love my rmz but don't pretend its got a good gearbox as it hasn't,  lets not forget how few rmzs are sold,  if they sold like crf you would see a outcry as its harder to fix than a crf valve setup,  sorry but that's the truth and sometimes it hurts

[Kev250 TT Bronze Member]

Chappers998, on 05 April 2012 - 07:17 AM, said:

Nope I remember the gear change drum, as for Mxtax the place is spoiled by and bunch of cretins and treated with less respect than here where I can have a sensible conversation without some moron chipping in.
I'm in no way offended although wonder what your post  was adding to the discussion.
I did extensive research into the gearbox issues on RMZs have informative conversions with Sam at Boretech the shop that sold me the bike, MVRD race team mechanics who admitted issues generally with wear on the gear teeth a hardening issue but he did admit their riders were very hard on the boxes but said they did replace the gears more often than they do on the Hondas they now run which they also have to replace along with most Suzuki dealers in the UK and many local owners only one of which had an issue but that bike has just had a brand new 2011 gearbox fitted and now sits in my garage as it happens, the same owner has had gearbox issues on other makes of bike possibly down to his size 13 plates. Everything that I have done to my bike is to ensure positive gear changes so the risk of wear from missed shifts is reduced.
The reason I bought the bike I did was because I trust Boretech and knew it's history, I'd never have bought an RMZ SH blind.
BTW I was a tech until 10 years ago but am now a marketing manager more money less hours not as much fun.
I don't really get what is so secretive about what you do for a living but that's your choice, my stepson works for Sumo racing but thankfully isn't bound by the official secrets act.

Agree about MX Trax!!  What I was trying to add (to people that are impressionable reading the thread): was that there is a known issue and don't be fooled into thinking that just because other bikes false neutral now and then your RMZ isn't any different.  That is dangerous advice (I'm not saying it was you by the way).  They do have an issue and I just don't want people to get hurt.

I phoned MVRD a while back when they ran Suzukis.  I was given advice to buy all new gears and have them hardened and super finished.  I don't know what you've done to yours but I would give Xtrac a call if I was after a solution now.  They do all the transmissions for the top lites bikes in America.

[Chappers998 TT Bronze Member]

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

Agree about MX Trax!!  What I was trying to add (to people that are impressionable reading the thread): was that there is a known issue and don't be fooled into thinking that just because other bikes false neutral now and then your RMZ isn't any different.  That is dangerous advice (I'm not saying it was you by the way).  They do have an issue and I just don't want people to get hurt.

I phoned MVRD a while back when they ran Suzukis.  I was given advice to buy all new gears and have them hardened and super finished.  I don't know what you've done to yours but I would give Xtrac a call if I was after a solution now.  They do all the transmissions for the top lites bikes in America.

My plan is looking into cryogenic hardening and super finishing if and when I have issues unless I do a full strip/ rebuild up till then it has a 2011 box (wider 3rd and 4th gears) and I have taken what precautions I can if it goes then i'll either spend the money on it or split it for spares. chances are this will be my last bike as i'm getting past it now.

[Jhawins TT Bronze Member]

I'm no mx rider by any means... But with just a general understanding of physics and comin sense I can tell you that revving to the limiter airborn on almost every jump is terrible on his transmission, chain, sprockets, and I'm sure plenty of other things.

[Chappers998 TT Bronze Member]

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 08:09 AM, said:

now what you've done to yours but I would give Xtrac a call if I was after a solution now.  They do all the transmissions for the top lites bikes in America.

I've just been checking out the Xtrac website I was hung up on Quaife but they don't do anything for RMZs, I've noticed they have a workshop in Berks so I'll be calling them to have a chat for options, thank you.

[Kev250 TT Bronze Member]

Chappers998, on 05 April 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

I've just been checking out the Xtrac website I was hung up on Quaife but they don't do anything for RMZs, I've noticed they have a workshop in Berks so I'll be calling them to have a chat for options, thank you.

No worries Chappers.  If they can help you out let me know, because I can possibly get you a discount.

Edited by Kev250, 06 April 2012 - 12:36 AM.

[funkinalive TT Silver Member]

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

... Look at your own poll - they are soft.

my pole shows that 18-20% off all RMZ's encounter a problem with the tranny within the first 50hrs of operation, hardly enough to justify a chronic problem such as the CRF's valvetrain problem which had a much higher concentration of issues (even without a pole)...

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

...As for me being an engine builder, I don't know where you got that from!  I said I work for a motorsport team (not in motocross by the way) and the guys in the gearbox department at work had a look at my 08 RMZ bits and were less than impressed.

notice the question mark placed after i wrote the QUESTION?! i assumed you were an engine builder since you didnt want to let anyone know what you do in motorsports...

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

  Where did I say I was clear what the problem was (quote me) I actually said I'd like to see the figures on what part is failing the most - does that sound anything like its clear to me?  When I fixed mine I had a goosed cam barrel - so I replaced that.  The new ones seem to have different issues.

this is where i admit a slight misunderstanding when you wrote

Kev250, on 05 April 2012 - 07:18 AM, said:

" ...Spend 5 minutes phoning round some motox engine builders or even sifting through this forum and you will see that there are far too many RMZ gearboxes with issues..."

and then you wrote this:

Quote

...and where did I say I'd seen so many transmission failed RMZs??? (Quote me)  I said neither.  But in truth I actually would say there are way more transmission issues with RMZs than any other bike.

so your telling people to call around and research the issue... i assumed again that writing this you have looked into it

i understand now that your tranny department has seen only one (your own) RMZ tranny, but since you seemed to have contact your local shops i again assumed you had experience with this (calling your local shops and researching the issue on forums) but while doing this im surprised that you hadent asked the constructive questions we are seeking on these forums (that which you asked at the end of your post: what WAS the common failure? you couldnt take the extra minute while phoning around and researching to find out?

Quote

I did come up with a fix, my cam barrel was knackered due to material/treatment failure - I replaced it.  Judging by your post count I'd say I'm not the one wasting time on forums either.  Where am I b@#^$ing? (Again quote me)

i appologize if this came out wrong (abviously it did) i meant it in a motivating way, not to offened you. i do that sometimes... as for your fix? very few have reported your same problem "most seem to complain more about the doggs rounding off"... maybe we should start there instead? again i appologize if i came off as an A-hole but i dont likearguing about problem, id rather talk about solving problems for those who have had them and improving an excellent bike

Edited by funkinalive, 06 April 2012 - 11:47 AM.

[mog Get Help Now]

I just cant see how you think 20% is not a sign of a significant problem,  that's one in 5 bikes,  to me that's 10 times higher than acceptable for a modern product, with programs that can analyse wear patterns and predict life spans of parts we should not have 20% of bikes faling very early in the life of the bike,  look at modern cars,they now do 20000 miles between services,  these bikes do 1000 miles and the gearbox is worn out,  big toad bikes with tons of power also do much better in comparison

[funkinalive TT Silver Member]

mog, on 06 April 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

I just cant see how you think 20% is not a sign of a significant problem,  that's one in 5 bikes,  to me that's 10 times higher than acceptable for a modern product, with programs that can analyse wear patterns and predict life spans of parts we should not have 20% of bikes faling very early in the life of the bike,  look at modern cars,they now do 20000 miles between services,  these bikes do 1000 miles and the gearbox is worn out,  big toad bikes with tons of power also do much better in comparison

im going to make it clear that i am NOT ignoring the possibility that a problem exists. but dont ask me to turn a blind eye to the owners who are running without issue who make up 80% of RMZ riders... thats a MAJORITY number. what 20% tells me is that the issue is out their, but it also makes me wonder what I, as well as 80% of the other RMZ owners out there, are doing right?! I dont like talking about whether there are problems or not, but i think i could make another pole and find a problem with any brand motocross bike within the first 50hrs of operation... the RMZ tranny issues are simply difficult for me to understand since the reports are so varying that its difficult to identify a root cause for the problem. id rather just ride my "issue free" bike in peace but at the least im trying to understand whats going on with those who have had problems to gather information to USE as advice in the future...

[mog Get Help Now]

I think I have explained the root problem
3 times already???? The gears are poor material ( from gear experts ) but the main issue is the hardening,  its not related to owners or how you treat it ( ive not had a gearbox break in over 20 years of racing ) the hardening process is crap,  on mine the dogs were soft ( but like new) but the driven gears were too hard and they then chip like crazy and that's what wear shows up like,  the same gear expert tested both and told me this,  the dogs were so soft they could be marked easily with a file,  it feels like you don't want to accept these basic facts as I have written them several times,  and say as 80% don't have problems it must be something the owners are doing different,  I say again I have treated this bike better than all my previous bikes and it failed due to suzuki crap quality control

[funkinalive TT Silver Member]

YES!!! oh GOD yes! im aware of your problem since youve explained it 3 TIMES ALREADY!!! and it looks like youve figured it all out then, poor QC gotcha the first time, and im not taking that away from you (not the only one on the forum). I dont understand what more you want from me? if it is a QC problem then its out of our control but youve taken it as the alfa and omega of the problem, yet the varience of the issues can suggest other problems or root causes. your own experience doesnt acount for the rest us. for example: I HAVE had trannies blow up or wear in my (little in comparison) 6 years of riding (not even racing for many of those years), also treat my bikes fairly well, but it happened. was it bad QC? might as well have been, but the engineer in me cant help but wonder if there was something i coulda done to avoid the "problem"...

[mog Get Help Now]

Look mate when lots of low hours (20% is lots within 50hours) bikes fail you can assume its not the owners,  I have asked many professionals and they all say the same,  what answer are you unsure of,  its not my bike or one expert its from tuners in the uk and us,  the answer is the same,  I feel you just don't want to accept it and are looking for something that doesn't exist,  a reason they fail that isn't the rider-discounted, gears material is cheap,  and hardening process is iffy,  what part of that would not make them fail? this btw isn't just my bike,  this is talking to others with the same problem,  if the pistons were not the right hardness they would fail,  I don't know what you want more to know?  All the dogs or driven mates to the dogs wear out much faster than they should,  life doesn't always have to be mega complicated,  you have your failures and you have known faults that cause the failures,  end of story Imo

[mog Get Help Now]

Why dont youSpeak to a few decent tuners and see if they will tell you the same,  suzuki make crap gearboxes,  always have and probably always will,  till a law suit stops them