57 replies to this topic

[screnshaw400 TT Gold Member]

 DHS_sponsored, on 05 February 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Dont count them out, rumours have it Honda Europe have muttered about a big come back into motorsports over the next 3-5 years, formula one, moto GP (i know they are currently running, but bigger budgets etc), and possibly the development of 2 stroke mx bikes again. Look at the Honda HP2, and the newer developments since then. They could jump straight back on the band wagon, a CR144, a CR250 or 300 with off road models would be great, and they would sell.

Not going to happen, totally against what honda stands for, which is.........four strokes. There are other companies that still make two strokes, albeit, they don't get sent to the US. Honda, on the other hand, has just stopped making them altogether.

[79yamdt TT Gold Member]

 DHS_sponsored, on 05 February 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Dont count them out, rumours have it Honda Europe have muttered about a big come back into motorsports over the next 3-5 years, formula one, moto GP (i know they are currently running, but bigger budgets etc), and possibly the development of 2 stroke mx bikes again. Look at the Honda HP2, and the newer developments since then. They could jump straight back on the band wagon, a CR144, a CR250 or 300 with off road models would be great, and they would sell.

Did honda ever make a 2-stroke off road/trail bike other than the elsinore based bike from the 70's, the MT? Since then they never made a bike like the, PE, IT, KDX, or WR that I'm aware of, their trail bike was the 4-stroke XR. Honda is in love with 4-strokes and always has been and I firmly believe will never make a 2-stroke play bike/trail bike. If you want a great 2-stroke trail bike get a KTM and be done. I just don't understand why people think a company with a history of dislike for 2-strokes would willingly produce one. Like I said if there comes a time when they can't be competitive with their 4-strokes they will probably make the switch to 2-strokes for their race bikes only.

[shrubitup brap]

Yep yep, general consensus is to just buy a woods purpose built bike but I'm cheap and like to tinker so I got two converted CRs.

[CRF80DJ TT Newbie]

Well then I will discount this as a hopefull rumor and start looking for a used 2 stroke Honda in the 80cc class for my youngest.  I might even consider going to a Yamaha just for the 2 stroke capability on the short track.  Thanks for the insight on this subject.

[Sofiedog TT Silver Member]

Seems like there may be a good business case if the governing MX and SX organizations allow larger displacement 2-strokes to compete with the 250Fs and 450Fs.

What would happen if 300 cc to 400 cc 2-strokes were allowed to compete against 450Fs and 150 cc to 200 cc 2-strokes were allowed to compete against 250Fs?

If the 2-strokes start winning, wouldn't many folks buy a new 2-stroke bike sooner than they normally would replace their 4-stroke?

Then, a company like Honda, would have to follow.

KTM has proven that you don't have to meet CA emission standards to sell great 2-stroke "off-road" trail bikes to the rest of the country and world.

[Kiffer_XR250R TT Silver Member]

 uuhhhh, on 04 February 2012 - 09:36 PM, said:

The DI two stroke engines would be the same configuration as current models, save for a fuel injector in the head and lower end oil injection. Direct injection on both two and four strokes enables complete fuel combustion, whereas carbs or port injection lets a lot of unburnt fuel out the exhaust. With DI, one can run as clean as the other.

Honda wont be bringing their smokers back anytime soon.

Sorry bud, but you're wrong. DI does not mean the enigne completely burns its fuel charge in the cylinder without unburn fuel or still burning fuel being carrried into the exhaust on the exhaust stroke. All it does is provide a more precise fuel metering. Once the fuel is delivered into the cylinder, the difference between a carby, a TBI/EFI and DI disappears. It become a plain-jane internal combustion engine, and because of this, unburnt fuel can still be in the exhaust, just at a smaller amount.

[Oic0 TT Gold Member]

 Kiffer_XR250R, on 05 February 2012 - 10:37 AM, said:

Sorry bud, but you're wrong. DI does not mean the enigne completely burns its fuel charge in the cylinder without unburn fuel or still burning fuel being carrried into the exhaust on the exhaust stroke. All it does is provide a more precise fuel metering. Once the fuel is delivered into the cylinder, the difference between a carby, a TBI/EFI and DI disappears. It become a plain-jane internal combustion engine, and because of this, unburnt fuel can still be in the exhaust, just at a smaller amount.

I think hes referring to the fuel dumped down the exhaust pipe because both the intake and exhaust are open at the same time and purposefully designed to blow its charge out the exhaust so the pressure wave can push it back in ("on the pipe"). With direct injection you can wait until the exhaust port is closed before you add the fuel to the mix so when off the pipe you just loose some air instead of fuel + air. That makes a big difference.

Edited by Oic0, 06 February 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[uuhhhh TT Bronze Member]

^Thank you. The amount of unburnt fuel left over after combustion is minisucle compared to what blows right through while the ports are open. You can see this on the chart posted earlier. I wasnt trying to make anyone believe there would be 0 HC emissions with DI, I guess I should have been more clear on that.

[Kurtis85 TT Bronze Member]

 Hammerider, on 04 February 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Not everyone knows that they can do that, I do know that, as designed a 2t has to burn oil/gas mix to lube it's inards,  They would have to redesign the present engines, to an engine similar in design to a Detroit deisel, with DI, crankcase oil, and blower or turbo to scavenge & charge the cylinder. So if you will fill me in on how the bike mfg's can do it, as clean as a 4t, please fill me in. Untill then I hope they just make 2t's for youth bikes, & CHAINSAWS.

But could you imagine if they figured that out in a nice small package. Physics say it would be more much more efficient and make a lot more power than a 4 stroke engine could ever theoretically be.   Probably why a 2 stroke diesel in that type of configuration is the engine of choice for 100 million dollar ships that need economy and reliablilty.

I personally would be happy with a di 2 stroke as a compromise. Something around 350cc with 60 or so hp and a lot of torque.  I'm a bigger guy and I can't stand the feeling of hitting the rev limiter on a 450 just knowing how many parts are flinging around at that rpm.  Especially somewhere like Glamis or the Cinders.

Edited by Kurtis85, 07 February 2012 - 08:35 PM.

[Escarpment TT Member]

even if honda did make a good new two stroke, i still wouldn't buy it, im not buying from a company that doesn't even like what they would sell.

Edited by Woods-kid, 07 February 2012 - 09:17 PM.

[Hammerider]

 Kurtis85, on 07 February 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

But could you imagine if they figured that out in a nice small package. Physics say it would be more much more efficient and make a lot more power than a 4 stroke engine could ever theoretically be.   Probably why a 2 stroke diesel in that type of configuration is the engine of choice for 100 million dollar ships that need economy and reliablilty.

I personally would be happy with a di 2 stroke as a compromise. Something around 350cc with 60 or so hp and a lot of torque.  I'm a bigger guy and I can't stand the feeling of hitting the rev limiter on a 450 just knowing how many parts are flinging around at that rpm.  Especially somewhere like Glamis or the Cinders.

I also like the THEORY of a 2t engine, rode 2t bikes for years, also drove trucks w/Detroit diesel engines, Great truck engines, and more power per cubic than a 4t, however the bikes fell short in my expectation in engine life, as I had to replace pistons on a regular basis, especially the road bikes, because miles piled up faster, also altitude was always a problem, heat was more of a problem w/2t's than 4t's. And smoke at high altitude was a serious problem for anyone behind me. So the switch to 4t's for me was good, If they ever produce a 2t, that will not smoke, seize, run crappy at high altitude, or wear out pistons & cylinders 3 times as fast as a 4t, count me in.

[Kurtis85 TT Bronze Member]

 Hammerider, on 08 February 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

I also like the THEORY of a 2t engine, rode 2t bikes for years, also drove trucks w/Detroit diesel engines, Great truck engines, and more power per cubic than a 4t, however the bikes fell short in my expectation in engine life, as I had to replace pistons on a regular basis, especially the road bikes, because miles piled up faster, also altitude was always a problem, heat was more of a problem w/2t's than 4t's. And smoke at high altitude was a serious problem for anyone behind me. So the switch to 4t's for me was good, If they ever produce a 2t, that will not smoke, seize, run crappy at high altitude, or wear out pistons & cylinders 3 times as fast as a 4t, count me in.

Cool because its actually a lot closer than you think.  Bill Gates threw about 25 million dollars a couple years to a small company called Ecomotors.  They have built a 296lb 2 stroke with all the emission advantages of a 4 but the power to weight advantages of a 2.  It puts out 325hp@3500rpms  664 lbs of torque at 2100rpms.  The technology used to charge the engine is incredible and it looks like it is moving into production stage soon.  Obviously this would need some adaptions and time to ever move into a bike but the concept is proven for a clean 2 stroke with massive power and superior fuel economy in a lighter weight package.

Its a pretty cool read about the motor.  They designed a turbo with a supplimentary electric motor to eliminate turbo lag, which in this case would critical to starting the engine.

Edited by Kurtis85, 08 February 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[BlackCR25098 TT Titanium Member]

I dunno I've always heard Honda is one of the major companies against 2 strokes honestly, but I'm a die hard honda 2 stroke guy. I don't care I'll rebuild my 98 for a lifetime if I have to. I'd never buy a 4 stroke.

[Rich_Bing TT Gold Member]

I do not  understand what Kawasaki, Honda, and Suzuki are thinking. Do they not see the sales that KTM and Yamaha are having on 2t. It cost less to produce which equals to lower price.  Why not make a product that a person can buy and maintain at reasonalbe price ( not to mention easier to work on).  If you see a demand for product....why not suplly it.

[highmarker Get Help Now]

Would you tool up, gear up, and invest in a product that's liable to banned at any minute?   Blame our flakey politician and green environmental policy makers for the uncertainty.   Doesn't matter if you can build a clean two stroke,  just being a two stroke makes them stick their nose in the air.  

The small manufacture CAN take the risk because they don't build as many units for import, that also lessens the total product enviro impact (not per veh).

heck we got clean snowmobiles for the yellowstone winter park rentals, and the bunny huggers stiil are out there trying to find carbon particulate matter residue. What the find is left over from bus after bus of diesel tours idling through the park and stopping at view areas. But they blamed sleds from the winter.

[Chokey]

 Hammerider, on 04 February 2012 - 09:15 PM, said:

I just went through all the video's and info I could find on the e-tec 2t's, It has to be a throttle body injection system they are using, which means they still burn oil with gas, They also say no smoke, and the injector computers are doing 8 million calculations per second, for load etc. So they might clean it up enough for bikes, but with the design I don't see it being cleaner than 4t's, and I couldn't find anything that says that, However it is a step in the right direction for 2t engines.

Evinrude E-Tech engines are Direct Injection.

http://www.evinrude....r/FAQ/ETEC#qst1

Evinrude also makes non-E-Tech Direct Injection two-strokes that use the Ficht DI system under license.

[Lead Head TT Gold Member]

 Kurtis85, on 08 February 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Cool because its actually a lot closer than you think.  Bill Gates threw about 25 million dollars a couple years to a small company called Ecomotors.  They have built a 296lb 2 stroke with all the emission advantages of a 4 but the power to weight advantages of a 2.  It puts out 325hp@3500rpms  664 lbs of torque at 2100rpms.  The technology used to charge the engine is incredible and it looks like it is moving into production stage soon.  Obviously this would need some adaptions and time to ever move into a bike but the concept is proven for a clean 2 stroke with massive power and superior fuel economy in a lighter weight package.

Its a pretty cool read about the motor.  They designed a turbo with a supplimentary electric motor to eliminate turbo lag, which in this case would critical to starting the engine.

Ecomotors is nothing new. Force-Scavenged two-stroke diesels have existed before. Detroit-Diesels and EMDs, and many others. Opposed pistons two-strokes just like the ecomotors engine have also existed before - Commer 3 Cylinder and the Junkers Jumo 205

[zig06 Get Help Now]

If the two stroke made a come back in the US, Honda would be the last to follow.  Deep down they have always been a four stroke company, even back in the 80's and 70's when two strokes were the absolute kings in road racing Honda raced a four stroke.

Yes, it would be cool to see Honda release an all new two stroke, but sadly my money is against them ever getting back into that market.  Any rumor saying that they will or that they are working on one, without real proof, is nothing more than a fabricated internet lie.

[highmarker Get Help Now]

was around in those Honda racing years, I'd say it would be more accurate to say they were a fourstroke technology company than an ani twostroke company. Trying to win races against 2 strokes with no displacement advantage.  In the day it was like winning a 250 race on a 125.  Don't see it as anything to bash them about,

[rpt50 TT Titanium Member]

The title pretty much says it all.  I'm aware that Yamaha still sells the YZ line, but those bikes are largely unchanged for years now.  What do you think?  Does anyone have any solid information?