Building a woods racer REKLUSE or FLYWHEEL WEIGHT or both?
Started by
Let-er Buck
, Jan 23 2012 04:26 PM
184 replies to this topic
Posted 09 February 2012 - 08:49 AM
I've run rekluse in all my race bikes since 2005. Only in my Cr250R did I like the flywheel weight with it. Probably due to the quirky powervalve opening on them. My 2009 YZ250 I liked without the weight and the clutch setup to engage at very low rpm. My current 2010 KTM250XC has enough weight with the rekluse to be a tank. I also have found my clutch components last longer racing with the rekluse. I believe it's because I do way less hammering in frustration on the clutch trying to get up to steam after making a mistake. As to bike stalling with a rekluse your setup is incorrect if this occurs. Either jetting,idle speed or engagement issue. I love how if you dump the bike it just lays there ideling waiting for you to pick it up. be careful though turning the throttle as you lift your bike can result in an FMX like back flip
Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:20 PM
MELK-MAN, on 09 February 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:
rpmxtreme03.. its because i have repeatedly stated they are not for everyone, you are proposing nobody should use em..and "feel nobody needs em especially a four stroke". but myself (A class leading harescramble rider) and MANY others in offroad riding will not race without. The flip side is I have talked with TOP GNCC racers on KTM that do NOt use them, but those bikes have hydro clutches. Much easier to modulate. Ever pull the clutch lever of a kx450 or crf450r for two hours??
I assure you im not slow, and ride 20 hours a MONTH on two nearly equally prepared crf450's. I rode for YEARS on these bikes with no autoclutch. The day i got an exp2.0 (and recluse urged me to get the expensive core for offroad racing) i was friggin in heaven after 15 mintues of getting used to it. So much so i only rode my 2nd bike 1 time before getting another auto clutch for that bike.
I have long known Dwight Rudders dislike of the auto clutch, and with multiple ISDE championships that is difficult to argue with, BUT there tens of thousands that DO use an auto clutch. If you took a moment to look around at the next harescramble you do, you will find this out. Over half of the first row that i race on (A class) use auto clutches.. THAT is hard to argue with too! Some like em, some don't. But your idea that everyone you know that has one burns them up and breaks fiber clutch plates is silly. They are not "magic", you can't run around 2mpr ultra tight woods in 4th gear with it, and not expect it to roast the clutch or worse.
And as Ttoks said, it makes riding EASIER if you get used to them. How many new riders do you see get discouraged when riding due to stalls? lots. The auto clutch is an amazing tool that CAN work for every rider, teatoteler to hard core racer.
I assure you im not slow, and ride 20 hours a MONTH on two nearly equally prepared crf450's. I rode for YEARS on these bikes with no autoclutch. The day i got an exp2.0 (and recluse urged me to get the expensive core for offroad racing) i was friggin in heaven after 15 mintues of getting used to it. So much so i only rode my 2nd bike 1 time before getting another auto clutch for that bike.
I have long known Dwight Rudders dislike of the auto clutch, and with multiple ISDE championships that is difficult to argue with, BUT there tens of thousands that DO use an auto clutch. If you took a moment to look around at the next harescramble you do, you will find this out. Over half of the first row that i race on (A class) use auto clutches.. THAT is hard to argue with too! Some like em, some don't. But your idea that everyone you know that has one burns them up and breaks fiber clutch plates is silly. They are not "magic", you can't run around 2mpr ultra tight woods in 4th gear with it, and not expect it to roast the clutch or worse.
And as Ttoks said, it makes riding EASIER if you get used to them. How many new riders do you see get discouraged when riding due to stalls? lots. The auto clutch is an amazing tool that CAN work for every rider, teatoteler to hard core racer.
thats great. lets not teach our kids how to use a clutch at a young age so that when they grow up they are fully dependent on an auto clutch! haha dont worry im just messing around
Your right new riders they are great for, but if your a new rider are you realy going to know when you shouldnt be in 4th gear at 2 mph? i doubt it.
these clutches are just not reliable. ok if you are riding twice a year for 10 mins at a time and not totaly comfortable with a clutch go ahead and throw that autoclutch in there. youll prob never get it too hot and youll never see the life of it with those few hours. but if your running a 2 hour HS your better off finishing 2nd every race cuz your tired than winning 75% of your races and the rest not finishing at all because your clutch just broke another friction.
MELK-MAN we should all be gratefull for your presence in this forum!
THATS A JOKE!!! NOBODY CARES THAT YOUR AN A RIDER!!!!!
if youve been racing 30 years and never made it past b class you should sell your bike and find yourself a nice pony or something!
congrats on leading the points in the a class i mean seriously thats great and all but you mentioned it like 10 different times in this post. and im not doubting your skills as a rider, but get over yourself!
all im saying is that i would not "recomend" the auto clutch because i feel that they are a waiste of money..some people such as melk man have fallen so deep into the glorious world of auto clutches, rainbows, and other magical things that they just cant see it.
if you happen to be one of these guys, greet the fairies and angels for me. tell them its from the world of hell, fire, and manual clutches.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:28 PM
rpxtreme03, on 09 February 2012 - 12:20 PM, said:
thats great. lets not teach our kids how to use a clutch at a young age so that when they grow up they are fully dependent on an auto clutch! haha dont worry im just messing around
Your right new riders they are great for, but if your a new rider are you realy going to know when you shouldnt be in 4th gear at 2 mph? i doubt it.
these clutches are just not reliable. ok if you are riding twice a year for 10 mins at a time and not totaly comfortable with a clutch go ahead and throw that autoclutch in there. youll prob never get it too hot and youll never see the life of it with those few hours. but if your running a 2 hour HS your better off finishing 2nd every race cuz your tired than winning 75% of your races and the rest not finishing at all because your clutch just broke another friction.
MELK-MAN we should all be gratefull for your presence in this forum! THATS A JOKE!!!
NOBODY CARES THAT YOUR AN A RIDER!!!!!
if youve been racing 30 years and never made it past b class you should sell your bike and find yourself a nice pony or something!
congrats on leading the points in the a class i mean seriously thats great and all but you mentioned it like 10 different times in this post. and im not doubting your skills as a rider, but get over yourself!
all im saying is that i would not "recomend" the auto clutch because i feel that they are a waiste of money..some people such as melk man have fallen so deep into the glorious world of auto clutches, rainbows, and other magical things that they just cant see it.
if you happen to be one of these guys, greet the fairies and angels for me. tell them its from the world of hell, fire, and manual clutches.
Your right new riders they are great for, but if your a new rider are you realy going to know when you shouldnt be in 4th gear at 2 mph? i doubt it.
these clutches are just not reliable. ok if you are riding twice a year for 10 mins at a time and not totaly comfortable with a clutch go ahead and throw that autoclutch in there. youll prob never get it too hot and youll never see the life of it with those few hours. but if your running a 2 hour HS your better off finishing 2nd every race cuz your tired than winning 75% of your races and the rest not finishing at all because your clutch just broke another friction.
MELK-MAN we should all be gratefull for your presence in this forum!
THATS A JOKE!!!NOBODY CARES THAT YOUR AN A RIDER!!!!!
if youve been racing 30 years and never made it past b class you should sell your bike and find yourself a nice pony or something!
congrats on leading the points in the a class i mean seriously thats great and all but you mentioned it like 10 different times in this post. and im not doubting your skills as a rider, but get over yourself!
all im saying is that i would not "recomend" the auto clutch because i feel that they are a waiste of money..some people such as melk man have fallen so deep into the glorious world of auto clutches, rainbows, and other magical things that they just cant see it.
if you happen to be one of these guys, greet the fairies and angels for me. tell them its from the world of hell, fire, and manual clutches.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:28 PM
cj_wai, on 09 February 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:
i,ve read your replies.in several of them you equate useing a flywheel as giving up horse power or torque.you think running a lighter flywheel gives more power?it actually changes the output of the motor?time for a re-think,me thinks.
we are not running electric motors in these bikes where the HP is consistant at all rpms.
We are running fire breathing single cylinder performance engines. idk how compitent you are but as the rpms rise you put out more HP. a FWW makes your rpms rise slower meaning that it gains hp slower.
if you were drag racing two identical bikes only difference being the FWW the heavier one of the two would be left in the dust! FACT!!!!
Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:30 PM
gruberyz, on 09 February 2012 - 08:49 AM, said:
I've run rekluse in all my race bikes since 2005. Only in my Cr250R did I like the flywheel weight with it. Probably due to the quirky powervalve opening on them. My 2009 YZ250 I liked without the weight and the clutch setup to engage at very low rpm. My current 2010 KTM250XC has enough weight with the rekluse to be a tank. I also have found my clutch components last longer racing with the rekluse. I believe it's because I do way less hammering in frustration on the clutch trying to get up to steam after making a mistake. As to bike stalling with a rekluse your setup is incorrect if this occurs. Either jetting,idle speed or engagement issue. I love how if you dump the bike it just lays there ideling waiting for you to pick it up. be careful though turning the throttle as you lift your bike can result in an FMX like back flip
love the last sentence of this hahaha
Posted 09 February 2012 - 12:37 PM
gruberyz, on 09 February 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:
Hmmm so all the GNCC riders i see running them along with GNCC/WORCS/OMA and AMA SX riders ar screwing up? In my opinion a Rekluse is more reliable for racing than a traditional clutch. A crash that breaks your hydraulic clutch master cylinder or tears your clutch cable does not result in a DNF. just have to ride without being able to slip the clutch when you want. In 2.5-3 hour races the clutch keeps you from stalling when fatique causes mistakes. Last time i spoke with paul Whibley at a race he said the rekluse was probably the single best mod to his bike for tough races. I dunno seems like he would know?
how about dwight? does he not know what hes talking about when he says he doesnt like them? hmmm
you guys are twisting my words here. the rekluse clutch is one hell of an idea. but they have a long way to come befor i would recomend spending the money on them. the pros who have the money to change their frictions between everyrace as a precaution great. or atleast have the time to check them between every race
idk about you but i work 30-40 hours a week on top of 16 credits per semester
and when im on break i work 40-50 hours a week. i do a lot of work and maintence on my bikes and i do a lot of work for other people too. but that doesnt mean i wanna pull my clutch everyweek.
and you mentioned that if your bike stalls with a rekluse its one of three things. the third one was engagement issue ..this means there is catastrophic FALURE with the AUTO CLUTCH!!!!!!!
Edited by rpxtreme03, 09 February 2012 - 12:39 PM.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 02:32 PM
cj_wai is correct, a heavier fww doens't take away peak HP, just changes how it is delivered or in other words changes the motors power characteristis. More fww, the more the characteristic of power is affected. For faster course harescrambles i went with 13oz on an 08crf450r per recomendation by the guys at TrailTech. some riders prefer 17oz or more but can depend on what your looking for. It is something instantly noticeable and again, like an auto clutch, is not for every rider or every condition. But adding some fww is advantageous for woods riding especially on a full on MX race machine like a crf450r.
I have not met Paul Whibley but i was told by a GNCC racer that DOES race with him, that Paul uses a recluse. And yes, WHAT WOULD HE KNOW!!LOL (for those not keeping up he is a top GNCC racer who even gives Charlie Mullins fits). Some GNCC guys don't use em! As i understand Charlie Mullins does not use an auto clutch but again, ktm has a hydro clutch but he simply prefers not to use one.
VERY good point about the autoclutch allowing ya to finish a race if the clutch perch breaks. i went from 4th place in my first 3 A class races, to instantly 2nd,3rd, 2nd in the next three after installing a recluse EXP2.0 (but according to mr. xtreme03 that means nothing..)
RPXtreme03, your obviously a child.. if not, you sure act like it on this forum. There is nothing wrong with acting childlike, just stop pestering us with your rantings.. for whatever reason YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. SOME LIKE AUTO CLUTCHES SOME DONT. From new riders, to TOP PROS. We KNOW Dwight Rudder has an amazing resume and doesn't like auto clutches, no problem! but MANY RACERS DO. That is what we have all been trying to get through to you. Your all speculation, theory, but no FACTUAL real life experience with auto clutches. You don't want to use one.. fine! don't! All the better for your "B" class competition to leave you in the dust.
gruberyz, on 09 February 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:
Hmmm so all the GNCC riders i see running them along with GNCC/WORCS/OMA and AMA SX riders ar screwing up? In my opinion a Rekluse is more reliable for racing than a traditional clutch. A crash that breaks your hydraulic clutch master cylinder or tears your clutch cable does not result in a DNF. just have to ride without being able to slip the clutch when you want. In 2.5-3 hour races the clutch keeps you from stalling when fatique causes mistakes. Last time i spoke with paul Whibley at a race he said the rekluse was probably the single best mod to his bike for tough races. I dunno seems like he would know?
I have not met Paul Whibley but i was told by a GNCC racer that DOES race with him, that Paul uses a recluse. And yes, WHAT WOULD HE KNOW!!LOL
(for those not keeping up he is a top GNCC racer who even gives Charlie Mullins fits). Some GNCC guys don't use em! As i understand Charlie Mullins does not use an auto clutch but again, ktm has a hydro clutch but he simply prefers not to use one.VERY good point about the autoclutch allowing ya to finish a race if the clutch perch breaks. i went from 4th place in my first 3 A class races, to instantly 2nd,3rd, 2nd in the next three after installing a recluse EXP2.0 (but according to mr. xtreme03 that means nothing..)
RPXtreme03, your obviously a child.. if not, you sure act like it on this forum. There is nothing wrong with acting childlike, just stop pestering us with your rantings.. for whatever reason YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. SOME LIKE AUTO CLUTCHES SOME DONT. From new riders, to TOP PROS. We KNOW Dwight Rudder has an amazing resume and doesn't like auto clutches, no problem! but MANY RACERS DO. That is what we have all been trying to get through to you. Your all speculation, theory, but no FACTUAL real life experience with auto clutches. You don't want to use one.. fine! don't! All the better for your "B" class competition to leave you in the dust.
Edited by MELK-MAN, 09 February 2012 - 02:55 PM.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 02:56 PM
MELK-MAN, on 09 February 2012 - 02:32 PM, said:
cj_wai is correct, a heavier fww doens't take away peak HP, just changes how it is delivered or in other words changes the motors power characteristis. More fww, the more the characteristic of power is affected. For faster course harescrambles i went with 13oz on an 08crf450r per recomendation by the guys at TrailTech. some riders prefer 17oz or more but can depend on what your looking for. It is something instantly noticeable and again, like an auto clutch, is not for every rider or every condition. But adding some fww is advantageous for woods riding especially on a full on MX race machine like a crf450r.
I have not met Paul Whibley but i was told by a GNCC racer that DOES race with him, that Paul uses a recluse. And yes, WHAT WOULD HE KNOW!!LOL (for those not keeping up he is a top GNCC racer who even gives Charlie Mullins fits). Some GNCC guys don't use em! As i understand Charlie Mullins does not use an auto clutch but again, ktm has a hydro clutch but he simply prefers not to use one.
VERY good point about the autoclutch allowing ya to finish a race if the clutch perch breaks. i went from 4th place in my first 3 A class races, to instantly 2nd,3rd, 2nd in the next three after installing a recluse EXP2.0 (but according to mr. xtreme03 that means nothing..)
RPXtreme03, your obviously a child.. if not, you sure act like it on this forum. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. We KNOW Dwight Rudder has an amazing resume and doesn't like auto clutches, no problem! but MANY RACERS DO. That is what we have all been trying to get through to you. Your all speculation, theory, but no FACTUAL real life experience with auto clutches. You don't want to use one.. fine! don't! All the better for your "B" class competition to leave you in the dust.
I have not met Paul Whibley but i was told by a GNCC racer that DOES race with him, that Paul uses a recluse. And yes, WHAT WOULD HE KNOW!!LOL
(for those not keeping up he is a top GNCC racer who even gives Charlie Mullins fits). Some GNCC guys don't use em! As i understand Charlie Mullins does not use an auto clutch but again, ktm has a hydro clutch but he simply prefers not to use one.VERY good point about the autoclutch allowing ya to finish a race if the clutch perch breaks. i went from 4th place in my first 3 A class races, to instantly 2nd,3rd, 2nd in the next three after installing a recluse EXP2.0 (but according to mr. xtreme03 that means nothing..)
RPXtreme03, your obviously a child.. if not, you sure act like it on this forum. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT. We KNOW Dwight Rudder has an amazing resume and doesn't like auto clutches, no problem! but MANY RACERS DO. That is what we have all been trying to get through to you. Your all speculation, theory, but no FACTUAL real life experience with auto clutches. You don't want to use one.. fine! don't! All the better for your "B" class competition to leave you in the dust.
I DID get a chance to talk to Paul Whibley at an OMA this past spring.... He says he DOES NOT use a Rekluse, and would not use an auto clutch, just Rekluse clutch plates so he can get sponsorship money. And I also think that goes for alot of the National Pros...just because they have the Rekluse clutch cover says nothing about what is underneath it. (Remember sponsorship money)
Edited by CCC4, 09 February 2012 - 03:00 PM.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 03:06 PM
rpxtreme03, on 09 February 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:
are you really that nieve? changing the output of the motor means changing your power curve. the power curve rises much slower because your rpms build much slower. sure youll have aprox the same peak hp once that mass is rolling but look at how long it takes you to get there.
we are not running electric motors in these bikes where the HP is consistant at all rpms.
We are running fire breathing single cylinder performance engines. idk how compitent you are but as the rpms rise you put out more HP. a FWW makes your rpms rise slower meaning that it gains hp slower.
if you were drag racing two identical bikes only difference being the FWW the heavier one of the two would be left in the dust! FACT!!!!
we are not running electric motors in these bikes where the HP is consistant at all rpms.
We are running fire breathing single cylinder performance engines. idk how compitent you are but as the rpms rise you put out more HP. a FWW makes your rpms rise slower meaning that it gains hp slower.
if you were drag racing two identical bikes only difference being the FWW the heavier one of the two would be left in the dust! FACT!!!!
again,your statement is wrong.you don,t have"aprox the same hp"you have exactly the same hp.a flywheel weight in no way changes the power output of a motor.
and your statement about a heavier flywheel weighted bike being "left in the dust"by the lighter weighted bike is again not a true statement.the bike may actually be faster with the flywheel weight increase .it would have to be tested to see.your making blanket statements that are in no way true.
Edited by cj_wai, 09 February 2012 - 03:07 PM.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 03:22 PM
CCC4, on 09 February 2012 - 02:56 PM, said:
I DID get a chance to talk to Paul Whibley at an OMA this past spring.... He says he DOES NOT use a Rekluse, and would not use an auto clutch, just Rekluse clutch plates so he can get sponsorship money. And I also think that goes for alot of the National Pros...just because they have the Rekluse clutch cover says nothing about what is underneath it. (Remember sponsorship money)
Edited by MELK-MAN, 09 February 2012 - 03:30 PM.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 03:36 PM
two top riders.. one uses/one doesn't..
Jason Raines #100 and Kyle Redmond #14 WR250
The Am-Pro Yamaha team is making its first go at a full season of EnduroCross. Usually taking on the multitude of Eastern U.S. off-road series, the Am-Pro guys are hitting every EnduroCross round and have built up their machines to make them competitive. Starting out as Yamaha WR250s, these bikes are some of the trickest around, but just like the Zip-Ty Husky team, there's no reason you couldn't build your own.
Read more: http://www.dirtrider...l#ixzz1lvlw8kDG
Edited by MELK-MAN, 09 February 2012 - 03:37 PM.
Posted 09 February 2012 - 03:43 PM
April 17, 2011. AHSCS co-sanction OMA race at Frt. Chaffee, Ar. Yes sir, I just threw that in about what he is using, I made a point to ask him several questions about bike set up and such. He is a very nice person and easily approachable. I have three bikes, two w/o Rekluse and one with. I bought a used bike that had a Rekluse Z Start-Pro. I like it fine...I will prolly never get to where I don't fan the clutch, but that is just me. Ha! I was training with some buddies Sunday, I missed the line in a creek and buried it, I just stepped off and throttled it right out...that Rekluse came in handy there for sure!. My main race bike, a YZ 290 smoker is fitted with a 9 oz. FWW, and I am really proud of the bike. Thanks Melk for not shredding me!
Posted 09 February 2012 - 04:02 PM
CCC4, on 09 February 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:
April 17, 2011. AHSCS co-sanction OMA race at Frt. Chaffee, Ar. Yes sir, I just threw that in about what he is using, I made a point to ask him several questions about bike set up and such. He is a very nice person and easily approachable. I have three bikes, two w/o Rekluse and one with. I bought a used bike that had a Rekluse Z Start-Pro. I like it fine...I will prolly never get to where I don't fan the clutch, but that is just me. Ha! I was training with some buddies Sunday, I missed the line in a creek and buried it, I just stepped off and throttled it right out...that Rekluse came in handy there for sure!. My main race bike, a YZ 290 smoker is fitted with a 9 oz. FWW, and I am really proud of the bike. Thanks Melk for not shredding me!
No way man:) you make a well stated, intellegent argument posted in a respectful manner.. i will post respectfully when treated respectfully. And you talked with a rider in question directly.. I too have found times when you never notice the benefits of an auto clutch, but then others like you found, when you were VERY glad ya had it. I am finding on the starts of harescrambles (and im sure mx starts if i still did mx) when your charging into the turn with 20-30 other bikes, having the auto clutch there to keep the bike from stalling allows you to focus your concentration on OTHER things not just making sure you pull the clutch in enough to keep from stalling the bike..
MrBlahh, on 09 February 2012 - 03:32 PM, said:
I think not running one is a huge disadvantage
personally i agree, but it is clear there are riders of various levels that use em and some that don't..
Edited by MELK-MAN, 09 February 2012 - 04:04 PM.
Posted 10 February 2012 - 05:53 PM
I had a z start pro on a 450sxf and it wore out clutch fibers prematurely and the basket notched. Also the clutch made a howling noise most of the time. But the bike rarely stalled. I like the bike better without it. A friend of mine has a 07 yz250 with a z start pro and the center ring came loose and messed up the center clutch hub. He replaced it and hasnt had a problem since. I recommend getting one. maybe the exp it has alot less moving parts.
Alot of the serious racers in my area will not ride with out a z start pro.
Alot of the serious racers in my area will not ride with out a z start pro.
Posted 12 February 2012 - 07:39 AM
True that melk....i dont think of mine as a auto cluth really...more of just a stall prevention device
Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:17 AM
Hi,
I have both a 9oz flywheel weight and a Rekluse exp 2.0 on my 07 yz450. I don't care which pro is riding what or what sticker they have on the side of the bike they ride. I research what is the best product for what I want to do and that is have as much fun on by bike as I can. I woods ride and haven't stalled since installing this combo last year.
I have both a 9oz flywheel weight and a Rekluse exp 2.0 on my 07 yz450. I don't care which pro is riding what or what sticker they have on the side of the bike they ride. I research what is the best product for what I want to do and that is have as much fun on by bike as I can. I woods ride and haven't stalled since installing this combo last year.
Posted 12 February 2012 - 11:45 AM
Let err BUCK, on 23 January 2012 - 04:26 PM, said:
I have a 2006 RM 250 that I am setting up to run Harescrambles. Right now its setup with the following:
IMS tank
Skid plate
Handguards
FMF Gnarly Pipe
FMF Q series silencer
I ran a couple races last year and did OK. Looking to improve the mountain performance. I do fine with the clutch and don't kill it too often but it is a handfull and tires me out. I am thinking that the FWW would smoth out the hit and I have heard great reviews from guys running the Rekluse.
Is anybody running them both. What weight are you using on your flywheel. Anything else that would help (gearing ect.) ???????
Thanks
IMS tank
Skid plate
Handguards
FMF Gnarly Pipe
FMF Q series silencer
I ran a couple races last year and did OK. Looking to improve the mountain performance. I do fine with the clutch and don't kill it too often but it is a handfull and tires me out. I am thinking that the FWW would smoth out the hit and I have heard great reviews from guys running the Rekluse.
Is anybody running them both. What weight are you using on your flywheel. Anything else that would help (gearing ect.) ???????
Thanks
Not sure if they will allow you to run the trials tire in competition? If so it should work well in tight nasty conditions
I just bought a pirelli MT43 for my KTM 200, have not tried it yet but its supposed to work better at higher speeds than the michelin, but I hear that it does not grip as well as the michelin.
