180 replies to this topic

[tech857 TT Bronze Member]

 Ryan_kdx, on 21 January 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

Only pro I could think of is resale value.  I'm pretty sure the diesel will sell higher when it comes time to sell or trade.  How much would the upgrade be if you were actually paying for it?  I wouldnt buy a diesel if unless I absolutely needed one, and even then, would hate using it as a DD.   Do your research first, remember how much everyone loved the ford 6.0 (vt365 i think on the international side)??  Pretty sure the 6.7 is gonna go down that path.  Were you looking a a 3/4 ton just because of the free upgrade?  You sound like you would be much happier w/ a 1/2 ton.  Should tow all you mentioned with no problems.

The 6.7 cummins is not having all the problems like the 6.0 Ford. The engine is solid. No head gaskets or injector problems. The issuses that occured with the 6.7 have been fixed with software. When they first came out they did not have the soot control dialed in but it seems to be pretty much good to go.

[Yamiryder TT Gold Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 21 January 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

Ecoboost + Plow = no warranty.

https://www.fleet.fo...-html/Q-200.pdf

Oh yeah, i forgot about that....well the 5.0 V8 is a good motor still.

[JCMINIS TT Silver Member]

 tech857, on 22 January 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

The 6.7 cummins is not having all the problems like the 6.0 Ford. The engine is solid. No head gaskets or injector problems. The issuses that occured with the 6.7 have been fixed with software. When they first came out they did not have the soot control dialed in but it seems to be pretty much good to go.

I agree, CTD 6.7 and so far in 30k I have had ZERO problems.

[TheGary TT Bronze Member]

First I want to say I love cummins diesels, that said I would not touch any diesel truck newer than 06 of any brand.  I have a 97 2500 with a cummins and I will keep it till there is nothing left of it.  The polution changes made in 2007 have made diesels not worth owning. They do not get the milage they used to, they break down more often, they do not last as long and they  will pleg you with repairs you would not have with a gas engine.  The diesel industry is going through what the gas engines went through in the 70's and 80's. The difference is that by the time they start getting better again most of the industry will have changed to CNG by then. The North American diesel industry is dead they just do not know it yet.  Thanks to our friends and thiefs in government.  A CNG truck hauling cross country will be an every day thing in 5-10 years.  They are setting up infrastructure right now for this.  
  No a CNG truck will not have the torque of a diesel but fuel costs are everything and it will be done weather we like it or not. Is CNG better than diesel ,well it depends how you look at it. Between the new polution regs, diesel fuel costing more than gasoline for no reason, and the ignorance of the public the diesel is doomed in North America.

Edited by TheGary, 23 January 2012 - 10:31 AM.

[BlackBuzzard TT Silver Member]

 TheGary, on 23 January 2012 - 10:26 AM, said:

First I want to say I love cummins diesels, that said I would not touch any diesel truck newer than 06 of any brand.  I have a 97 2500 with a cummins and I will keep it till there is nothing left of it.  The polution changes made in 2007 have made diesels not worth owning. They do not get the milage they used to, they break down more often, they do not last as long and they  will pleg you with repairs you would not have with a gas engine.  The diesel industry is going through what the gas engines went through in the 70's and 80's. The difference is that by the time they start getting better again most of the industry will have changed to CNG by then. The North American diesel industry is dead they just do not know it yet.  Thanks to our friends and thiefs in government.  A CNG truck hauling cross country will be an every day thing in 5-10 years.  They are setting up infrastructure right now for this.  
  No a CNG truck will not have the torque of a diesel but fuel costs are everything and it will be done weather we like it or not. Is CNG better than diesel ,well it depends how you look at it. Between the new polution regs, diesel fuel costing more than gasoline for no reason, and the ignorance of the public the diesel is doomed in North America.

If by "the North American Diesel industry is dead"  do you include cummins or just most of thier diesel engine lineup?

Cummins is into CNG engines in  a very big way.   They will just evolve their product line even faster to CNG.

Cummins the company, and its stock, is doing better than ever!

Diesel costs are largely set on the world market.......demand may be flat to down here, but elsewhere in the world they gladly pay up for it.......with barges and tankers leaving the gulf refineries daily.


BB

[somethingnuw TT Bronze Member]

I kinda have to believe that the diesel engine market in NA will die... too much emmissions crap... i'd pay the xtra cost in a heartbeat if diesel were allowed to be emmisions free...

Anyone know what Europe is doing?  I was there this summer... everything there runs on diesel even High end cars... i couldn't believe it.. small compact family cars diesel... no one there is complaining about diesel or their emmission and they are a lot more "into their environent" then we are... so where did we go wrong?  I blame it on California and ignorance... i was told there (not sure how true) diesel emmisions fall back to the ground as particulates and don't cause a whole in the ozone like gassers??? Just saying... i have no knowledge to back this claim...

[MyRCRocks TT Newbie]

I wasn't really interested in a debate on the diesel industry as a whole... Just on the 2012 Dodge 2500 diesel vs the 2012 Dodge 2500 gas, given that the diesel is a FREE upgrade right now...
Thanks fellas.

[tech857 TT Bronze Member]

 MyRCRocks, on 23 January 2012 - 02:07 PM, said:

I wasn't really interested in a debate on the diesel industry as a whole... Just on the 2012 Dodge 2500 diesel vs the 2012 Dodge 2500 gas, given that the diesel is a FREE upgrade right now...
Thanks fellas.

  I would say take the free upgrade. You get a much stronger overall package with the diesel. Better resale as well.

[TheGary TT Bronze Member]

 BlackBuzzard, on 23 January 2012 - 12:56 PM, said:

If by "the North American Diesel industry is dead"  do you include cummins or just most of thier diesel engine lineup?

Cummins is into CNG engines in  a very big way.   They will just evolve their product line even faster to CNG.

Cummins the company, and its stock, is doing better than ever!

Diesel costs are largely set on the world market.......demand may be flat to down here, but elsewhere in the world they gladly pay up for it.......with barges and tankers leaving the gulf refineries daily.


BB

I am sure diesel manufacturers will change to CNG engines, some easier than others but the diesel is dead in North America.  Diesel fuel is cheaper than gasoline in every continent in the world but N.A. the rest of the world will still use diesel to some degree for a very long time because they do not have the diesel natzis that the US has.  The extra cost of diesel here is the governments way of keeping people from buying more diesels.  The rest of the world does not have the large CNG reserves that N.A. has ,we are the Saidi Arabia of CNG and more is being found every day .

Edited by TheGary, 23 January 2012 - 03:49 PM.

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 clutchless, on 22 January 2012 - 08:01 AM, said:

That says nothing about the Eco Boost just the EPAS.

The only steering option on an EcoBoost engine is the EPAS system, and they're not sufficient to handle plowing stress, and are not combined with a plow prep package, thus EcoBoost + Plow = No Warranty.

Hang a plow on a truck that doesn't have a plow prep package....kiss the warranty good bye (at least on steering and suspension and frame).

[clutchless TT Gold Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 23 January 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

The only steering option on an EcoBoost engine is the EPAS system, and they're not sufficient to handle plowing stress, and are not combined with a plow prep package, thus EcoBoost + Plow = No Warranty.

Hang a plow on a truck that doesn't have a plow prep package....kiss the warranty good bye (at least on steering and suspension and frame).

The way the posts were reading, it made it sound like the eco boost was the reason for the warranty void not the steering. I was thinking the plow would restrict airflow to the intercooler and cause the turbo's to boil their oil and destroy the engine. Thus making the Eco Boost a POS. But steering not supporting plowing is a totally different issue.

My theory on the eco boost is that there will be a slew of problems around 110k on the first - 3rd generations due to turbo failure.

I'm not sold on this engine pulling 12k for a long period of time. I still think an HD V8 gas or diesel is the way to go.

Edited by clutchless, 23 January 2012 - 06:09 PM.

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 clutchless, on 23 January 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

The way the posts were reading, it made it sound like the eco boost was the reason for the warranty void not the steering. I was thinking the plow would restrict airflow to the intercooler and cause the turbo's to boil their oil and destroy the engine. Thus making the Eco Boost a POS. But steering not supporting plowing is a totally different issue.

My theory on the eco boost is that there will be a slew of problems around 110k on the first - 3rd generations due to turbo failure.

I'm not sold on this engine pulling 12k for a long period of time. I still think an HD V8 gas or diesel is the way to go.

I'm in the same boat...impressive engine, but longevity I'm still skeptical.

But....we see turbo charged small gas engines in other applications that aren't coming apart at the seams, but this is Ford we're talking about, so only time will tell.

[clutchless TT Gold Member]

I'll stick with tried and true. No need to guinea pig new auto technology.

[toyota_mdt_tech]

 MyRCRocks, on 19 January 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

So, can anyone please educate me... I'm considering a new Dodge Crew Cab 4x4 2500... I pull an enclosed trailer all summer (7x16) loaded with 2-3 bikes, 1 quad, and camping gear, and in winter months, I plow as weather dictates (private/residential)... I've never owned a diesel truck, but there is a promotion going locally (Atlantic Canada) for a no-charge upgrade to a Cummins Turbo-diesel instead of the standard Hemi... Is this a worthwhile upgrade? For what reasons? I put roughly 25000-30000 km/year on a vehicle and this would be my daily driver... How does fuel consumption compare? Maintenance costs?
All insights are appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

I bought a new Ram 2010 2500 Crew Cab Long Bed, Cummins diesel and even tow a 7X16 trailer with 2-3 bikes and a quad (are we twins) and I got the 6 spd manual tranny and unloaded towing zilch, I get 18.1MPG, (special ordered the 3.42 axle ratio)  loaded, about 13.5. I bet if you rolled the gasser, you'd actually get less in mileage towing (probably around 10MPG) and unloaded, it may be close or worse, but I bet not better. Also, when I tow with my diesel, it does it with ease, no laboring, it just pulls, gasser would labor, especially over mt grades. Drawback, diesel maintenance is more expensive. I do my own, I can do a full oil change for under $50 doing it myself, I get OE filter from Wal Mart plus the oil.

If you can get a diesel upgrade for free, smoking deal. I paid over $7000 for that option. But I got the truck for 38K new. (SLT)

Edited by toyota_mdt_tech, 23 January 2012 - 06:48 PM.

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 clutchless, on 23 January 2012 - 06:28 PM, said:

I'll stick with tried and true. No need to guinea pig new auto technology.

Turbo's are a new idea if you're Methuselah....they were invented in 1909, became commonplace on big diesels in the 70's, and the auto industry began playing with them around the same time.

[clutchless TT Gold Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 24 January 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

Turbo's are a new idea if you're Methuselah....they were invented in 1909, became commonplace on big diesels in the 70's, and the auto industry began playing with them around the same time.

LOL. thanks for the history lesson. Twin Turbo in a gasser truck that can tow 11,000 lbs is the new technology. Not a turbo on it's own.

And while turbos are not new. How many turbo cars would you buy used...

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 clutchless, on 24 January 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

LOL. thanks for the history lesson. Twin Turbo in a gasser truck that can tow 11,000 lbs is the new technology. Not a turbo on it's own.

And while turbos are not new. How many turbo cars would you buy used...

Everyone's scared of the first one...heck, I know people that won't buy an EFI vehicle, or when they do, they buy early 90's TBI trucks and still rip the perfectly functioning EFI off and replace it with a carb.

Twin turbo's are nothing new, it was done long ago by Cummins and Detroit and even Cat, and Cat revived the idea for emissions purposes.

If anything, in a gas engine, they should last longer-less soot and contaminants.


As for used turbo-charged vehicles...GN's, Syclones and Typhoons still seem to find plenty of buyers.

[Leardriver TT Titanium Member]

Nothing tows heavy weight like a diesel. Dodge is at the bottom of the quality heap, but the Cummins is a great engine. You then have to settle for driving a diamond wrapped in a turd.
I had a powerstroke, and it was a great tow vehicle, but I couldn't wait to get rid of it and get a smooth, quiet, gas engine as soon as I didn't have to tow heavy things. Newer gas engines are so good, and tow ratings so high on half tons, that for a regular tow weight of 6500 or less, gas is my choice.
The ecoboost is intriguing, but the claimed gas mileage hasn't materialized. Ford has improved their quality lately, also. The Tundra is still a monster tow vehicle, and high build quality.

Edited by Leardriver, 24 January 2012 - 01:55 PM.

[Kiffer_XR250R TT Silver Member]

 MyRCRocks, on 19 January 2012 - 05:42 PM, said:

So, can anyone please educate me... I'm considering a new Dodge Crew Cab 4x4 2500... I pull an enclosed trailer all summer (7x16) loaded with 2-3 bikes, 1 quad, and camping gear, and in winter months, I plow as weather dictates (private/residential)... I've never owned a diesel truck, but there is a promotion going locally (Atlantic Canada) for a no-charge upgrade to a Cummins Turbo-diesel instead of the standard Hemi... Is this a worthwhile upgrade? For what reasons? I put roughly 25000-30000 km/year on a vehicle and this would be my daily driver... How does fuel consumption compare? Maintenance costs?
All insights are appreciated.
Thanks in advance!

If you are getting a Cummins, shell out the extra $4000 and get the HO. Durability-wise, they are as solid as the 5.9l, and if you do a basic emissions overhaul, ie. Cat & EGR delete, intake, and a basic tuner, you can double your MPG and your power. I personally know two guys that did exactly this, and the power difference between stock and slightly modded is mind-blowing.

Other than that for the amount you are pulling, get the Hemi.

 Lead Head, on 19 January 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

How much does your trailer weigh, this truck going to be a daily driver?

The new Cummins 6.7 does not get the mileage of the older 5.9, and reliability has not been terribly aweosme on them. Oil changes, fuel filter changes, air filter changes, etc..will all cost more. In some cases they actually negate any mileage increase the Diesel may offer. The Ford 6.7 Diesel offers far better mileage and power, but costs quite a deal more.

Honestly, if you're only going to be pulling 24 days total out of the year (assuming they're to there/back on each of those 12 weekends) and it's going to be your daily, a gasser would probably be a better bet. I'd wait until Dodge rolls out the 6 Speed for the 2500 Gassers though - or get a Ford/Chevy gasser that already offer a 6 speed auto.

^^ See above post.

Dodge has been offering the 6-sp standard with the Hemi since 2006, and it is still an option for 2500/3500. You may not see it in the online Build&Price, but go to a dealer and price one.

 Chickenhauler, on 20 January 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

I wouldn't touch one of these new diesels.  Too much crap to go wrong, and when it does, it's not cheap to make right again.

Then, factor in this isn't a simple engine anymore, it's an extremely complex system of engine management controls, valves, filters, and injectors.  Lots to go haywire.  And not just anyone can work on them.  Make sure your dealer has a good tech who works on them day in, day out, not just some schlub who went to a 3-day 'class' and now knows where the oil filler cap is.  An inexperienced tech can make what should be a simple repair turn into an epic saga of return repairs.

EGR, DPF and Urea?  Not a good recipe for longevity IMHO.

Dodge doesn't have a DPF, the urea BlueTech is still only a requested option.

[Yamiryder TT Gold Member]

 Kiffer_XR250R, on 25 January 2012 - 06:32 PM, said:

Dodge doesn't have a DPF,

Yes, the 6.7 does have a DPF on all models. I believe urea is only on the 4500 and 5500 chassis cab models though.