180 replies to this topic

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 joshua_inigo, on 10 March 2012 - 10:27 AM, said:

Yup, maybe it's new but the new ones now in reality, don't smoke at all.... Even my 3.0-litre DMax pickup doesn't belch smoke unless if you have a leak in the engine, but it would be white smoke then, not black diesel soot....

You're not getting the point I was making-he most likely had a tuner installed, which changes the fuel delivery parameters, increasing power, negating emissions standards, and can cause large amounts of black smoke, thus the CHP was interested in having a chit-chat.

Quote

That's what the diesel engine is for ---- loading, hauling, towing, and chugging.... You might find them useless now, but perhaps if you ride one, you'd be surprised at how easily this midsize diesel can tow a 3000 tonne load (6600 lbs) so long as it's a brake-trailer, and still return a pretty high fuel mileage. Three (3) dirtbikes at the back carriage is nothing for what they were made for. Also, 180 kph is easy for these modern diesel pickups, like the Toyota Hilux 3.0 D-4D or Isuzu DMax 3.0 iTEQ VGS Turbo or Nissan Navara 2.5 LE or a Volkswagen Amarok 2.0 TDi bi-turbo.

Wow, 6600 lbs.  My 94 gas powered Chevy PU truck does that.  Not impressed by that tow rating.  Really not.  And that's why the Chevy is a playtoy, not a workhorse.

And when I need to haul something, 6600 lbs capacity isn't going to get much done.  My current workhorse on the farm is a F350 dually.

Quote

It's not that they'd be useless in the US mainland, it's just that the governing laws in the US provide a lot of economic, and perhaps, even technical constraints in owning diesel utility pickups. If these midsize diesels thrive or are teeming globally and work excellently for any big European, Australian, UK, Kiwis, or any other Caucasians, i don't see Americans having problem with them at all.... Chances are, you will even like them....

Like I said, they won't fit my needs.  Just like a 18 wheeler probably won't work well for you.

Although, they might work well for someone else.

But I'm cheap-takes a long time to recoup that initial increased investment in purchase price, then with fuel prices being what they are....it just doesn't pencil out for personal transportation.

[joshua_inigo TT Silver Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 10 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

You're not getting the point I was making-he most likely had a tuner installed, which changes the fuel delivery parameters, increasing power, negating emissions standards, and can cause large amounts of black smoke, thus the CHP was interested in having a chit-chat.

Well noted now

 Chickenhauler, on 10 March 2012 - 10:38 AM, said:

Wow, 6600 lbs.  My 94 gas powered Chevy PU truck does that.  Not impressed by that tow rating.  Really not.  And that's why the Chevy is a playtoy, not a workhorse.

OF COURSE Chickenhauler, it should haul 3.0 tonnes at the least for an American guzzler pickup. That's what expected of them, isn't?

But does it return any 12.5 km per litre (29.4 miles per US gallon) after hauling/ towing such?

[Yamiryder TT Gold Member]

Are you sure you aren't a Dmax salesman?

[roostierooster855 TT Silver Member]

diesel is more than gas but a diesel truck gets way better mpg than a gas truck...... lets say 2 mpg better even though it more, that makes up for it right there

[llane TT Bronze Member]

 roostierooster855, on 10 March 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

diesel is more than gas but a diesel truck gets way better mpg than a gas truck...... lets say 2 mpg better even though it more, that makes up for it right there

But it doesn't make up for the extra initial cost of purchasing a diesel over gas or the increased maintenance costs

[Chokey]

 roostierooster855, on 10 March 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

diesel is more than gas but a diesel truck gets way better mpg than a gas truck...... lets say 2 mpg better even though it more, that makes up for it right there

You really need to get a little better at math. The typical diesel truck costs $7k-$10k more than a comparable gasoline truck. Right now diesel is averaging about $.50 more per gallon, but that difference has been as high as $.80 per gallon. Oil changes costs considerably more. Regular maintenance and service costs more. And most repairs on diesels are bank-breaking expensive.

In most cases you will NEVER break even on the purchase of a diesel truck over gasoline.

[joshua_inigo TT Silver Member]

 Yamiryder, on 10 March 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

Are you sure you aren't a Dmax salesman?

Haha! ....You made me laugh out so hard man Yamiryder.

i'm just an overseas worker for a North American company who just happened to own two DMax in my home country.... and who's just quite lucky enough to use any of these 4x4 midsize diesel pickups on a daily basis over the last 15 years, i.e. Isuzu DMax, Toyota Hilux, Mitsubishi Triton, Nissan Navara, Mazda BT-50, Ford Ranger, include also Toyota Landcruisers and Prados, into our exploration and minesite areas.

[joshua_inigo TT Silver Member]

 Chokey, on 10 March 2012 - 01:48 PM, said:

You really need to get a little better at math. The typical diesel truck costs $7k-$10k more than a comparable gasoline truck. Right now diesel is averaging about $.50 more per gallon, but that difference has been as high as $.80 per gallon. Oil changes costs considerably more. Regular maintenance and service costs more. And most repairs on diesels are bank-breaking expensive.

In most cases you will NEVER break even on the purchase of a diesel truck over gasoline.

+1 on the maintenance aspect. A typical 2.5 to 3.0-litre diesel engine requires 8 litres of oil during drain-and-refill interval compared to only average 4 litres on the gasoline engine. It cost a bit more to regularly maintain a diesel car following the preventive maintenance schedule than a gasoline one.

But it is probably relatively cheaper in my place compared to United States when availing the regular maintenance and check-ups from any of the service centres provided by your own car brand. In one of the Isuzu service centres here in Metro Manila, my every 5000-km odometer distance interval maintenance check-up (i change my fully-synthetic Mobil 1 Delvac Gold every 10,000 km, by the way), my average maintenance cost depending on the maintenance checklist, say, every 4 months after the 5,000 km interval is just around PhP5,000 to PhP6,500 (or US$117 to US$152).

Also, our diesel fuel cost lower, whether you use the high-cetane diesel or even the Euro 5-compliant diesel, than the regular to 100-octane RON gasoline fuel.

Upfront ownership cost between a gasoline car versus a diesel one is also just the same. That's why owning a diesel car here is not a problem at all in terms of initial and working capital and operating cost in the long-haul....

Again, it's all relative from one country, or region, or continent, to the other....

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 joshua_inigo, on 10 March 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

+1 on the maintenance aspect. A typical 2.5 to 3.0-litre diesel engine requires 8 litres of oil during drain-and-refill interval compared to only average 4 litres on the gasoline engine. It cost a bit more to regularly maintain a diesel car following the preventive maintenance schedule than a gasoline one.

But it is probably relatively cheaper in my place compared to United States when availing the regular maintenance and check-ups from any of the service centres provided by your own car brand. In one of the Isuzu service centres here in Metro Manila, my every 5000-km odometer distance interval maintenance check-up (i change my fully-synthetic Mobil 1 Delvac Gold every 10,000 km, by the way), my average maintenance cost depending on the maintenance checklist, say, every 4 months after the 5,000 km interval is just around PhP5,000 to PhP6,500 (or US$117 to US$152).

Also, our diesel fuel cost lower, whether you use the high-cetane diesel or even the Euro 5-compliant diesel, than the regular to 100-octane RON gasoline fuel.

Upfront ownership cost between a gasoline car versus a diesel one is also just the same. That's why owning a diesel car here is not a problem at all in terms of initial and working capital and operating cost in the long-haul....

Again, it's all relative from one country, or region, or continent, to the other....

It's not the maintenance or the purchase price that gets ugly, it's the repairs once the warranty is over that gets downright expensive.

Injectors $2-500 each.
Turbo $1200+

And that's just the parts, the labor is another story....

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 joshua_inigo, on 10 March 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

Well noted now



OF COURSE Chickenhauler, it should haul 3.0 tonnes at the least for an American guzzler pickup. That's what expected of them, isn't?

But does it return any 12.5 km per litre (29.4 miles per US gallon) after hauling/ towing such?

That pickup gets about 18 mpg if I'm nice to it, if I'm really nice I can squeeze 20-21 out of it.

The beauty of that truck is it's simplicity-I can work on it without the need of a library full of manuals, a PC interface, diagnostic software.  And the parts...well, it's a Chevy small-block.  They're a dime a dozen.

 roostierooster855, on 10 March 2012 - 11:54 AM, said:

diesel is more than gas but a diesel truck gets way better mpg than a gas truck...... lets say 2 mpg better even though it more, that makes up for it right there

I'm in Casper WY this evening.

Gas $3.19
Diesel $3.99

My dually with a big block gas EFI gets 12 mpg.  This equates to 26.5 cents per mile fuel costs.
That same truck with a PSD would get 18 mpg.  That's a 50% improvement over the gasser-sounds really great?
Comes out to 22.1 cents per mile fuel costs.

4.4 cents per mile cheaper in fuel costs to own a diesel.

The diesel engine package is a $7k option.  Doing the math, you'd break even on the initial purchase price at 159,091 miles.  That's not comparing maintenance costs or any possible breakdowns/repairs, just the additional cost of the diesel engine package.

[joshua_inigo TT Silver Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 10 March 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

It's not the maintenance or the purchase price that gets ugly, it's the repairs once the warranty is over that gets downright expensive.

Injectors $2-500 each.
Turbo $1200+

And that's just the parts, the labor is another story....

Although cheaper than the modern eVGT today, the mechanical VGT of my ute is still undeniably quite expensive really. But even then, gasoline-fed cars or vehicles equipped with turbochargers are also very expensive. A Subaru WRX-STi's turbo, for example, may cost around US$1,800.

Not only the turbo in a diesel is expensive though.... Even the OEM EFi computer box cost around PhP120,000 (US$2,800). During the freak and massive flooding in September 2009 in my place, a lot of diesel cars, pickups etc suffered from damaged OEM computer boxes that required outright replacement.

[joshua_inigo TT Silver Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 10 March 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

That pickup gets about 18 mpg if I'm nice to it, if I'm really nice I can squeeze 20-21 out of it.

The beauty of that truck is it's simplicity-I can work on it without the need of a library full of manuals, a PC interface, diagnostic software.  And the parts...well, it's a Chevy small-block.  They're a dime a dozen.

+1, Chevy as well as Ford trucks are really nice, especially the new ones we're having here as midsize diesel utes....

If i'm quite nice with my ute, this is my fuel-mileage along our freeways here


Average 21.5 km per litre = 50.57 miles per US gallon


That was taken when it was still in stock-trim. My fuel mileage now is even higher due to the 1st-stage diesel EFi tuning kit (RaceChip Pro from Germany) i installed at the commonrail. It also bumped my hp by plus 22% more and my torque by 21% more at my current power settings, which are not maxed out.

In stock-trim, here's the power and torque characteristic of my midsize diesel ute. Mine is utilising the 2006 engine model, which is just a 2nd-generation diesel in 4-straight cylinder configuration. But there is now a new 2012 model engine, and this one is a 3rd-generation diesel commonrail.



Although the net peak power is just plus 120 kW (163 hp), the net peak flat pulling-force is 360 Nm (265.83 lb force-ft) starting from low revs of 1800 rpm to 2800 rpm.

A typical plus 4.0 litre gasoline V6 pickup may produce between 320 Nm to 380 Nm of peak torque depending on the model, but this will be at a high 4000 rpm and usually it doesn't behave as flat as that of a diesel engine. A comparative V6-configured diesel engine, however, even when it's only 3.0-litre, will produce even higher pulling-force of 550 Nm from low 1500 rpm all the way to plus 3000 rpm, which is more than what a bigger gasoline engine can do....

And this is where the fuel mileage plays into role ---- the lower in the revs where the peak torque is located, the better, as one doesn't need to go to high-revs to pull something.... Incidentally, the peak torque is also the region where the engine is working at most efficient, and the diesel engine can provide this even if you ease the pedal from say 2800 rpm down to 1800 rpm, the peak torque is always there....

Edited by joshua_inigo, 11 March 2012 - 05:07 AM.

[roostierooster855 TT Silver Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 10 March 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

That pickup gets about 18 mpg if I'm nice to it, if I'm really nice I can squeeze 20-21 out of it.

The beauty of that truck is it's simplicity-I can work on it without the need of a library full of manuals, a PC interface, diagnostic software.  And the parts...well, it's a Chevy small-block.  They're a dime a dozen.



I'm in Casper WY this evening.

Gas $3.19
Diesel $3.99

My dually with a big block gas EFI gets 12 mpg.  This equates to 26.5 cents per mile fuel costs.
That same truck with a PSD would get 18 mpg.  That's a 50% improvement over the gasser-sounds really great?
Comes out to 22.1 cents per mile fuel costs.

4.4 cents per mile cheaper in fuel costs to own a diesel.

The diesel engine package is a $7k option.  Doing the math, you'd break even on the initial purchase price at 159,091 miles.  That's not comparing maintenance costs or any possible breakdowns/repairs, just the additional cost of the diesel engine package.

but its nice if your towing a ton ya know, the torque of the truck..... plus they sound cool,  you can go alot longer on oil changes to.  I mean there is many pluses ans minuses and you have to figure out if you need that type of power ya know i mean we are both right in a way........ kinda like buying a new bike, you should get what make and model fits you best... thats the way o look at it but i still would like a diesel just to see how they are.  But for the small suv that these others can get with a diesel sounds awsome and there loving theme!

Edited by roostierooster855, 11 March 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

 roostierooster855, on 11 March 2012 - 07:26 AM, said:

but its nice if your towing a ton ya know, the torque of the truck..... plus they sound cool,  you can go alot longer on oil changes to.  I mean there is many pluses ans minuses and you have to figure out if you need that type of power ya know i mean we are both right in a way........ kinda like buying a new bike, you should get what make and model fits you best... thats the way o look at it but i still would like a diesel just to see how they are.  But for the small suv that these others can get with a diesel sounds awsome and there loving theme!

You're not saving anything on the oil changes-yes, you can go twice as many miles on drain intervals, but there's twice as much oil needed, and the filters cost twice as much.

[Yamiryder TT Gold Member]

I'm guessing that computer MPG gauge isn't very specific, because i can't see how in the heck you would average 50 MPG....

[tech857 TT Bronze Member]

 Yamiryder, on 11 March 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I'm guessing that computer MPG gauge isn't very specific, because i can't see how in the heck you would average 50 MPG....

Those computer mileage displays are actually quite accurate. The ECM knows exactly how much fuel its delivering so all it needs is the vehicle speed and some simple math and there you go.

[joshua_inigo TT Silver Member]

 Yamiryder, on 11 March 2012 - 05:35 PM, said:

I'm guessing that computer MPG gauge isn't very specific, because i can't see how in the heck you would average 50 MPG....

You won't know it Yamiryder, until you actually own one....

There is another way to check it deterministically though to erase any doubts about diesel EFi's.... We may fill-up the tank first up to the brim, then ride the ute making sure the other series of odometer included in the cluster meter panel is resetted (not the permanent total distance odometer displayed there all the time), then after some distance, say 200 km or so in a steady run (do not blip-blip the throttle pedal, push or press it as consistent as possible, other than when you have to apply the brakes), fill-up the tank again after that distance covered, and then divide the total distance, say 200 km, with the volume of fuel just put in. i'm always using a high-cetane diesel (Shell V-Power Diesel), by the way.... This pic was taken while driving through one of our expressways here, or freeways as you call them in the U.S. I'm at 1750 rpm and speeding around 85 km per hour (just 53 mph).

To provide you some more indicative fuel mileage runs about modern diesel EFi commonrail pickups of today, when my family and i head up to Baguio City last December 2010 (elevation almost 2000 metres above sea level, or 6500 ft) all the way from Metro Manila, my fuel mileage in a combined freeway, provincial and local town roads, and hillclimbs was 13.9 km per litre (32.7 miles per US gallon).... i was even breezing through the hillclimb in 4th-gear most of the time at slightly above 2000 rpm and downshifting to 3rd-gear in tight switchbacks or hairpins along the zigzags. Near the very top to Baguio City, i was already in 5th-gear. Even overtook the Chrysler Town-and-Country owned by our family friend that joined us in the outing just to impress upon him haha ....His Chrysler gasoline-fed was gobbling less than 6 km per litre average and he couldn't believe my fuel mileage

i bought the RaceChip Pro diesel EFi kit in 2011 after my 3-year warranty lapsed. i think it would have been much better fuel mileage if i already had it then in 2010....

Edited by joshua_inigo, 11 March 2012 - 08:48 PM.

[Chickenhauler Get Help Now]

Truth be told, digital dash mileage readouts are notoriously inaccurate.  I've seen anywhere from 5-20% variation on a regular basis.  The only way to accurately factor fuel mileage is to hand calculate from one tank to the next.  Even the dealers techs don't rely upon the ecm when customers complain about fuel consumption rates.

[joshua_inigo TT Silver Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 12 March 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

Truth be told, digital dash mileage readouts are notoriously inaccurate.  I've seen anywhere from 5-20% variation on a regular basis.  The only way to accurately factor fuel mileage is to hand calculate from one tank to the next.  Even the dealers techs don't rely upon the ecm when customers complain about fuel consumption rates.

In case (just in case) you finally happen to own one 3.0-litre diesel EFi commonrail midsize pickup, or say a 2.2-litre Hyundai Santa Fe R-eVGT midsize SUV, you may do the checking manually by all means as previously stated to prove any doubts about ECM in relation to the actual/ or measured fuel run. You may even do a long-distance traverse using a GPS if you're not comfortable with the cluster panel odometer....

 joshua_inigo, on 11 March 2012 - 08:44 PM, said:

You won't know it Yamiryder, until you actually own one....

There is another way to check it deterministically though to erase any doubts about diesel EFi's.... We may fill-up the tank first up to the brim, then ride the ute making sure the other series of odometer included in the cluster meter panel is resetted (not the permanent total distance odometer displayed there all the time), then after some distance, say 200 km or so in a steady run (do not blip-blip the throttle pedal, push or press it as consistent as possible, other than when you have to apply the brakes), fill-up the tank again after that distance covered, and then divide the total distance, say 200 km, with the volume of fuel just put in. i'm always using a high-cetane diesel (Shell V-Power Diesel), by the way.... This pic was taken while driving through one of our expressways here, or freeways as you call them in the U.S. I'm at 1750 rpm and speeding around 85 km per hour (just 53 mph).

Or, by all means, you may even drive my utility pickup just in case you visit a developing or 3rd-world country like ours, whether it interest you or not sir

By the way, does that mean that the fuel mileage reading of less than 6 km per litre of the Chrysler Town-and-Country that my friend has is even worse of a guzzler than what's being shown by the cluster meter?

Edited by joshua_inigo, 12 March 2012 - 07:03 AM.

[Yamiryder TT Gold Member]

 Chickenhauler, on 12 March 2012 - 12:52 AM, said:

Truth be told, digital dash mileage readouts are notoriously inaccurate.  I've seen anywhere from 5-20% variation on a regular basis.  The only way to accurately factor fuel mileage is to hand calculate from one tank to the next.  Even the dealers techs don't rely upon the ecm when customers complain about fuel consumption rates.

What he said