Well I had the opportunity to take my bike out this weekend and put 45miles on her at Rock Creek after I switched to Grays mid. The set up worked great all around! I am running my comp at 9 out and my rebound at 10 out. This set up is what I was looking for to begin with. Now I am going to try CJWAI set up next. Its going to be hard to improve on my current set up.

I'm glad to know it works for you.  That's mine in the sense that I use it, but I can't take credit for coming up with it.  Dave thought it up, I just tested and posted it.

sacfelix, on 05 February 2012 - 10:38 PM, said:

Ditto, I ran mine this week in very sandy whooped double track mixed with single track woods, it did very well staying up on the whoops compared to gen 2 DDT.  Hit a tree on lap 2 and blew out a radiator...  boo.  This setup is stiff enough for me.  Clickers were 10 comp, 8 reb (07 YZ450F, 175 lbs, B rider)

Just as a follow up, I ended up switching to the comp stack below from 20 0.11 8, 11 0.30 8, etc...
20 0.15 8
11 0.30 8
18 0.11 8
16 0.11 8
14 0.11 8
11 0.25 8
11 0.25 8
17 0.30 8
SPI 62 Spring
SPI 175 Spring
8 7.30 6

It still feels great over small chop and you dont loose any of the lead in.

I forgot about this thread until I got the email update from sacfelix.

I got tired of messing around with the DDT and couldn't get a hold of Dave.  I'm currently having much better success with a different approach.  I bought the new KYB midvalve cups from Suspension Direct and am very close to having them dialed in.

So I've now got my suspension back from getting modified to be more plush over the trail chop. I got to ride it yesterday, was riding with my boys on their 50's (4 & 6yr old) so I didn't get to give it a real test nor did I have a chance to play with the clickers. All I've done it set the fork height and shock sag when I installed the suspension. I can say that it seemed noticeably better than before, but to be fair, it's been a couple months since I rode it last, so I can't say for certain until I get to get out on my own with it. I will update when I do.


Here's my current build sheet



...

my guess is you will find that fork and shock to be pretty soft.

Thanks for your input cj. Was hoping some of you that were involved in this discussion would chime in. Actually, when I rode it at first it didn't feel that much different that what I remembered and riding around with my boys at their pace it didn't either. But, when I made them park and let me run down the trail and back a couple times it felt really good. Maybe a little too slow on the rebound (all clickers are still "default") but the 3R's (rocks, roots, ruts) felt much better than before.

Im going riding this Sat without my boys, so I'll get to give it a good eval and play with the clickers and see what I've got. I'll be sure to update when I do.

...

i think it may be soft on whoops and big high speed bumps.with the early thick crossover i have 17 face shims on my base valve and no crossover .i also clamp on the stock 14mm base shims.my mid is stiffer than yours except my blowoff spring has less preload.i think there is so much different that they won,t compare.give yours a really good all around test including lots of high speed.see how it makes out.

i really do ask alot of my suspension as i ride  1st gear crawling rooty rocky crap to really fast whooped out stuff.

cj_wai, on 17 May 2012 - 07:20 AM, said:

Not an easy thing to set up for, is it?  But that's the desert racer's standard problem.  The modified DDT set up with the heavy crossover early in the mid works better than anything I've tried so far.

I had a very similar set up to the original DDT number9 had, and changed it in an almost identical way (same fork, two different bikes).  I got very similar results, too, in that the only complaint I had about the fork to begin with was initial harshness that showed up as kicking and deflecting in rocky sections and as a harsh feel over small chop at speed.  The fork was stellar in every other way, although my setup would be too soft for modern MX if I was as fast as a good 40 year old C/B rider.

With the modified mid, the performance in rocks and on chop is vastly improved while it hasn't lost a step at high speed in the rough stuff.

My setup is similar -  

Base has 15 face shims, with a 22x.1 crossover in the 6th position.

Midvalve has (2) 11x.3 shims in place of your 12 x .3 above the springs.  This limits my total stack lift and it stays up better in whoops.  There may be some variability in the stack, but mine allows .55 lift before the smal inner spring coil binds.

The phase 3 (this) really fixed my complaints, which were the same as others, harsh on chop, blowthrough on big hits.

If I go in again, I will probably replace my base crossover with a face shim similar to CJ.

Any reason you can't run tapered stacks on the exchange piston?  Would like to try that stack but don't have enough shims.

Something like:

18.2
17.2
16.2
15.2
11.3
10.3

Edited by kan3, 18 May 2012 - 03:16 PM.

I put a bleed shim into my exchange stack along with the .20 shims:

  9 0.20 6
18 0.30 6
17 0.20 6
16 0.20 6
16 0.20 6
11 0.30 6
11 0.30 6
  9 0.30 6

The 18 is a .30 and followed by a 17 because I couldn't find an 18x.2x6 locally.  Nice improvement in rocky areas at low speed.

I saw that from another one of your posts.  I went ahead and put in the stack I mentioned along with a 9.2 bleed shim.  Going to test it tomorrow on a rocky trail I ride.

Well just got back from a good 40 mile ride today. I took along my '00 YZ250 for my brother to ride. It has the "Terrain Tamer" fork setup (IDF, Isolated Damping Fork, comp in one leg, reb in the other) from Bruce's Suspension in NC.

Disapointingly, I found the revised suspension in my '09 SPI suspension still too harsh over the 3R's from 5-10 mph. Any speed above that was good and seemed like the faster I rode the better it was, but in the slow chop it just wasn't there.

I played with the clickers but couldn't get the harshness out. I traded bikes with my brother for a bit so he could experience the Rekluse EXP and I didn't want get back on the '09. The suspension on the '00 is really sweet in the woods.

I forgot the settings the clickers were at out of the box but it was better there than nearly any other setting I tried. I couldn't seem to get back to that and just got tired of fooling with it. I'm not sure where to go from here. The though has crossed my mind to put a set of open bath forks on it and ditch the twin chambers....

.....

It's amazing that this thread sounds exactly like the ones two years ago when I got my suspension done by SP.  Went through the same experience with no contact and finally getting them back and not noticing that much difference.  I finally had to almost crash big time at speed during a race to give up.  Took it to another tuner and spent another $400 to get it right.  He turned it around in three days and it worked 100% better.

number9, on 19 May 2012 - 04:24 PM, said:

I need to go in and look at your record to see what sort of set-up you have, but I can't figure out who you are. Trying to find a 09 WR250F in Kentucky....but nothing is coming up. Or is this the 00 YZ250?

Sounds like we just have something that is too stiff for what you are doing...obviously. This is just the tricky part of designing and building suspensions. Some riders want stuff softer, other riders want something stiffer...and sometimes you just don't know until we build and test it.

But we seldom build stuff for 5 to 10mph. That's means first gear...very technical. A fully clamped mid-valve will be a nightmare in that stuff...and yes, your clickers won't save you.

Let me know who you are and let's get this fixed. We have plenty of options...we just need to align what we have to what you are doing.

xcountryfreak, on 06 July 2012 - 06:02 PM, said:

Yes..it is going to be something of a common theme because most of the riders that we develop and build something for, want a suspension that they can run fast and hard. About 80 to 90% of the riders we worked with are very pleased with the results. But if someone tells us that they want a fast off-road suspension, then start ticking along at 5MPH over basket-ball rocks, then yes...it's going to be too stiff. The Dell Taco, in most installations, it not designed for that. It doesn't mean that it's a bad suspension, it just means it wasn't tuned for that.

We also have some off-road guys that we can't make stuff stiff enough. They always want more. So we often start guys somewhere in the middle and then take a reading. And I always try and get a really good read on riders before we install anything...and usually tell them up front that what we are going to do it not ideal for rock climbing or slower speeds.

That said, we can get a suspension tuned to do just about anything...other than creating one suspension that is ideal for both Pro Supercross AND the Red Bull Last Man Standing. That also means that if you took your Bruce Suspension and gave it to a Int-Pro guy, he/she would most likely hate it. I mean, when you hit a big rock or root, (while in first gear) you have a very large displacement at a relatively slow to moderate rod speed. The ideal mid-valve for that would never take the abuse that an average MX guy could put into the fork in a whoop section.

Short of hooking up a computer to the forks, there are limits on how broad of a package you can put together. If you need it softer, let me know and we'll figure out how to get it done but don't let frustration keep you from being logical and focused.

And I should add this. It's hard to know what to do when you get your suspension done and it doesn't feel right. Do you take it back to the person that did it and risk them still not getting it right, or do you forward it to someone that you may or may not know to try and resolve it? Certainly, when you get a suspension done you have some time and money invested in that, and you don't know if you're miles away from getting it right (several changes) or perhaps you are just a few shims or small changes from getting something that is perfect. We have customers that hated the first design that we did, only to end up with something they thought was the best-ever, after making a few simple changes. We just had to get to know each other. We also had customers that didn't like our stuff, then went to two to three other tuners, still couldn't get it right, to then end up coming back. Sometimes you just don't know and you have to read things out a bit.

Overall, I would say that it's wise to at least talk with you suspension tuner before you do anything crazy. Get a feel for what you have and what you think you need and if they is not an obvious solution...(or a good solid answer from the tuner) then perhaps it's time to go somewhere else. We don't claim to be perfect and we certainly don't want anyone feeling like they got ripped off...and that is why we have always offered a refund on anything that we did where someone worked with us to get it right and it didn't work out. And we almost always cover the cost to ship items back and fourth when changes are required. So I don't pretend to be perfect...but we do try to do everything we can to make things the best we can.

And lately, we have been super busy...so sometimes emails and phone calls get lost or don't make it through...so always try again.

For what its worth, i had the pleasure of dealing with Dave a few months back on my yz450 for mx and I love it, he was above nice in dealing with any questions I had due to my lack of knowledge of adjusting the forks to do what I want. There were several calls on different occasions and he was always helpful. Atleast give him chance to make it right, I have no doubt he will.

DaveJ, on 07 July 2012 - 11:46 AM, said:

From my own experience I certainly have to agree with Dave on this one. Over the years I've always gone soft on the valving looking for the perfect off road set up but for me it just was'nt working. Yes it was fine going slow but open it up and the bike became more of a handful to ride safely, it also tired me out more.

Now I've upped the valving considerably on both ends, so much so you'd think it was set up for supercross.The bike stays up in the stroke and I can hit whoops, holes and logs going much faster while doing it safely.
Yes the first gear stuff sucks but I figure the energy I spend there is more than saved to go fast, which is what in the end suspension tuning is all about.