B Lamb said:

MegaDeTH, on 24 December 2011 - 07:04 PM, said:

Everyone has been thinking it so I have to say it......this is total BS!  First off you have tons of cameras, post a video of you doing this!  Second, you talk about doing a serious racing move on a course that is known well by the racer and has a perfect rock, whoop, smaller log or some other ramp (rare in the outdoors unless modified by humans).  This isn't anywhere near trials riding (shows your ignorance in this regard).  Simply put it is a 1 in 10,000 chance of being a real thing unless it's set-up on any significant log (either by humans or by long-shot chance).

Edited by mylsmkj, 18 January 2012 - 11:01 PM.

mylsmkj, on 18 January 2012 - 11:01 PM, said:

I haven't been thinking it..  He didn't say anything about a track, and he didn't say he was doing trials riding.  He said he wanted to get a trials bike because he always liked that kind of riding.  Where did you get this about a "serious racing move"?  (Have I been racing my DR and nobody told me?)  I had to go back and see if you quoted his whole post or not, and you did, but I don't understand how your response relates to it?

I like to clear logs as well - I'd also like a trials bike because I like that kind of riding (precision, balancing, wheel placement, etc).  I have no desire to race or ride trials competitively.

I think some of the war or heat is over a Shane Watts video of jumping a small log at speed where there was a dip just before the log that allowed him to use the dip as a pre-jump.  It looked cool but I too was thinking "that is not something I would do on a fast trail without inspecting the log and dip FIRST"

That was what I would call FLYING over the log...   "Jumping", the way I think of it, usually involes some contact.

BTW, I don't see that Shane Watts Video anywhere in this thread. Was it removed as part of the SOPA & PIPA legislation crap?

I just had one of my videos from VIMEO.COM removed because a fairly unknown musician's attorney didn't like me including it in the video, even when I gave him credit in the video AND the introduction text..  I would think my non-commercial video would be like free exposure for him...  go figure...  Anyway, the video is still on You Tube but I wonder for how long.

Edited by 2PLY, 19 January 2012 - 07:33 AM.

2PLY, on 19 January 2012 - 07:33 AM, said:

That is exactly the video that I thought he was referring to, if not I fully take back my response and apologize.  Those other guys were joking around about 4th gear pinned, I thought he was serious that he used this pre-jump technique regularly.
Thank you 2ply for all of your help and posts.
The video is still there.

Edited by mylsmkj, 19 January 2012 - 03:10 PM.

that was a pretty boss video... i'd try that but i know i'd just eat a plate of shit after...

lol that's not what I was talking about, I cant do that

Sorry man!

If you learn how to do a REAL "Bunny-Hop" where BOTH tires are in the air at the same time and you come down first on the front wheel, then it's possible and usually even easy to do the jump as Shane did in the video WITHOUT the dip or helper.

I'm out of practice, but we used to do them all of the time to clear large mud puddles on the power line roads.  Done correctly at speed, you can clear a 20 foot long mud puddle without making even a ripple in the puddle. Or fly over a 12 inch log without even touching it.  However, if your suspension is really "cushy" and tuned with a lot of rebound damping, it will be much more difficult.

Bunny Hops are simple once you've figured out the timing and leg work coordinated with handle bar leverage, but EXTREMELY wordy to try and explain.

Edited by 2PLY, 01 February 2012 - 06:38 AM.

No way in hell would I do what Shane shows in that video!!!  You cannot tell me at race speed seeing that log for the first time coming around a corner and you are going to home you can "jump" it...heck no!!!
If you are in the least bit incorrect, you are going to bite it hard and end your day or worse yet your season.   I'll never be a pro, so I'll continue to take that slower route around.  

2PLY, on 01 February 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Bunny hops are real easy to learn on a mountain bike, it's even the same concept as jumping on a skateboard. In the simplest form, you need to lift the front wheel high, and then rotate the bike around it's center to lift the rear wheel up. With just body input, I can do small ones on my trials bike, I'm working on the timing to use the engine to lift the front now and I can do much bigger hops like that.  If you get a little bounce in the suspension (mostly applicable to trials bikes) you can go even higher! Try on a mountain bike first, I did and once I got on the trials bike I managed a small hop on my first try... then I learned on the trials bike better control with my body and now I can do better ones on the mountain bike!

The Bunny Hop technique can be used when you encounter a bunch of slimy roots too. Even if you don't get air, it will unweight the bike so that it almost floats over the roots.

One Enduro Bike example of a Bunny Hop..  Not the best, but good enough:




And the same instructor on a Trials Bike:

Edited by Brian Wilson, 08 February 2012 - 12:40 PM.

762SPR, on 01 February 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I've only practiced with my enduro bike (although I can easily bunny hop my mtn. bike) there's a lot more to it on an enduro bike because the only way I know how is body movements and suspension compression similar to a mountain bike but then you add the throttle and clutch inputs to lift your front tire over the obstacle then un-weight the rear and mash the rear brake for a split second to get the bike to lift the rear and rotate over the obstacle......In my case "obstacle" + only small rocks or trackless areas where you can see take-off and landing points (I'm certainly not successful everytime).  At speed  (at speed is key here) with a 12+" log would be sketchy cause if you're too early with hitting your rear brake and plant your front tire right before the log your going over your handlebars if your late then your meeting the log with your rear brake on and you could still go over your bars.  If anyone can do this on an enduro bike I'd love to see video, I'm sure there are folks that can.  I think the log in Watts' video would be tough though because your talking a 8-10" log that is suspended another 6-8" off the ground where he jumps it.
How do my methods for the bunny hop compare to yours?

Edited by mylsmkj, 01 February 2012 - 05:51 PM.

I would avoid using the rear brake. That is moving the pivot point to the rear of the bike, the rear tire, and only causing the front wheel to drop, not raise the back wheel (although it might lift it indirectly through suspension rebound). Not to mention that then you are relying very much on traction to do the hop.

What I do is lift the front wheel, either using my legs and body only, or by using some engine input. Once the front wheel is up, I load the rear suspension, and then "jump off" the pegs, just like a pogo stick. This, I believe, is where the actual "hop" comes from. From there, as you go over the obstacle, you can push the bars down and "float" the back wheel over the obstacle. The body movement is fairly complicated, I'm not sure how to describe it, it's more of a feel thing to me... and I'm still practicing it myself! From a physics standpoint, it is fairly simple (I like to break down maneuvers down to their basic physical principals, it helps me visualize what to do in my head). It's all about rotating the bike around two, (or more) centers of rotation. The first is the back wheel, you rotate about that point to lift the front wheel and bring the mass of the bike and you up higher. Next, you need to bring the back wheel up. On a vehicle with suspension, you can use the rebound to help with this, but we know that bunny hops are possible on rigid mountain bikes and skateboards. The key to hopping these is to shift the center of rotation forward and "pivot up" the rear wheel. I like to imagine I'm rolling over a barrel with my skidplate, that helps me with my body movement.

Watch the video 2PLY posted on the trials bike, the first 4 seconds are all you need. That's a perfect illustration of what I'm trying to describe. Note the movement of his body, how once the front wheel is up, he shifts his weight forward and pushes the bars. The only rear brake involved is to keep the bike from rolling backwards when he lifts the front, but you don't have to worry about that when you're moving.

Outstanding job explaining this for a trials bike or mtn. bike!  I have found that the rear brake is my biggest friend in a bunny hop with an enduro bike.....I think that you will find the same that the mechanical advantage is huge.  I questioned it at first as I was trying to bunny hop, it's so many movements at once. As you jump off the pegs and un-weight the rear it's critical and quite natural once you do it a few times to hit the rear brake.  I slowly scanned the first video because I was curious what he did especially since he is on a two stroke with less engine braking (as you can still bunny hop without the rear brake by getting off of the throttle with a 4 stroke).  If you go frame by frame you can clearly see him hit the rear brake hard right as his skid plate crosses the rock.  You should give it a try, my best results have come from from from more throttle and clutch than I I would normally do for the amount of front lift that I wanted then hitting the rear brake at the same time I throw my body forward and un-weight the rear.

I could be way wrong with my assesment or what he's doing but I have found that this was a big help to me.  Once a buddy told me to do it I was more successful.  Ths higher you lift the front the more potential for the bunny hop, I think that that we can agree on that, IMO the rear brake helps change that energy in a quicker more efficient way than body weight and suspension alone (although you need all with a 250# plus machine).

Edited by mylsmkj, 01 February 2012 - 09:15 PM.

762SPR, on 01 February 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

I think so!


You know a thread is way off course when your taling about log crossings, go to bunny hopping and then post a vid of Danny MacAskill!

Edited by mylsmkj, 01 February 2012 - 09:40 PM.

I love watching the videos of Danny MacAskill!

I'm still not so sure about the rear brake, and I think in the demo video, that is just his foot rotating on the peg, I think his toe is behind the brake. That would be a lot of travel on the brake if it wasn't. Hard to tell... To be honest, I haven't tried it on a full sized bike though. I'm talking from a purely physics point of view, that it would be more efficient not to move the center of rotation to the back wheel. But as you said, we're talking about a much heavier bike with less springy suspension, so you may need the brake to get the mass moving in a different direction! I'll definitely be trying it next time I take the big bike out for a spin though.

I would really focus on timing and the way you work your body. Very small variations seem to affect the outcome a lot from my experience.

I don't think I have EVER used the rear brake in a bunny hop and I've done hundreds of them.  If he's applying the brake in the video, it might be that in doing the body part of the jump, the foot is rotatin and LOOKING like he's using the brake.  Of course, in the hop where he's stopped and actually hops rearward, there is brake added there..   But what about the first video?  The one where the same rider is on the Enduro Bike?  For some reason, I could not get the still view of the video to show like it does on the Trials one...   click the link for the first video...   I'll look at it all again when I get home.

Oh, and for your non-Trials bike, if you can, adjust the rear damping on the shock for much LESS damping and see if that helps..  Trials Bikes are set up with very little damping so the rider can decide when he wants the suspension to bounce or stick just by how he uses his legs.

Edited by 2PLY, 02 February 2012 - 04:56 PM.

I did google search about this and it seems with the sport bike guys (only thing on google besides trials) that some use the rear brake and some don't.  So I'd imagine that it is all about timing and body movements.  The one kicker there is that those are 1000cc machines and have to have alot of engine braking when they chop the throttle and throw their weight forward.  I'm going to practice both ways and see what works best.  Although I know once a buddy told me to use my rear brake I was much better.
I'm just about to pick up a trials bike so maybe that will help out too, although I'm going to focus on trying to learn to ride the thing first.  
Where in Idaho are you 762?  I used to live in McCall, I'm bummed that I didn't ride a moto or mtn. bike when I lived there, I'm going to maybe try to make it back there for some single track this summer. I live in Moab Utah now so I do do some trials type riding already but looking forward to picking the trials bike up!




front wheel placement that 2ply might even like.

Edited by mylsmkj, 02 February 2012 - 08:09 PM.

Nice Photos!!!   That first one looks really scary like your weight is too far back for that climb...   did you make it?   One pointer here for you,,  we've been talking about foot position a lot lately and in every shot here, I see your boots are still in the flat ground position, meaning they are rotating WITH the pegs or staying on the top of the peg...  this will throw your weight back.

The problem here is really caused by the bike. Nothing really wrong with the bike, just that when the going gets this extreme, the foot pegs are too far forward which makes the handle bars crowd you from standing in the correct position for this climb with your feet flat to the center of the Earth and not the top of the pegs..

A lot of people in recent discussions have claimed that they prefer standing with the pegs on their instep all of the time and not on the balls of their feet,,  These photos show why it becomes important to shift to the balls of your feet when the going gets technical..  If you roll your knees forward so that your feet are flat with the center of the Earth and your head is directly above your boots or slightly forward, your toes would hit the rock.  And of course, you can't roll your knees far enough forward on this bike to get centered over the pegs because the steering head is in the way..

You are going to LOVE your new Trials Bike!!    Just remember to let go of old habits..  try to identify them and work on it with photos like these and videos.

Edited by 2PLY, 03 February 2012 - 09:10 AM.