124 replies to this topic

[Pappy141 TT Bronze Member]

I just checked out their web-site...It appears that they prefer to use the hamstring or the same side patella...You really need to look into opposite side patella as it cuts your down-time in half...You'll be racing again in the Spring. Oh yeah, swollen and stiff is normal, it may even buckle on you.

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

yea, that's what the doc said.  He also brought up kadabra (not sure how to spell it)  but he said success is not as good as patient patalla.  I did bring up hamstring, but he did not seem real interested in that.  I read shelbourne site, it says they like swelling and full movement before surgery, not sure that's possible.  going on 7 weeks still swollen.  I need to prepare a list of questions, as doc in and out so fast its hard to ask any questions for tomorrow.  

Pappy141 said:

I just checked out their web-site...It appears that they prefer to use the hamstring or the same side patella...You really need to look into opposite side patella as it cuts your down-time in half...You'll be racing again in the Spring. Oh yeah, swollen and stiff is normal, it may even buckle on you.

[Pappy141 TT Bronze Member]

Because the Shelbourne clinic is a research center for knee injuries you'll fill out a long questionaire about your injury and lifestyle. You'll find that the Dr's and therapists will spend as much time as needed to answer all your questions. Stayaway from the cadaver graft at all costs...Generally a B level fix.

[1talbotj TT Bronze Member]

just remember, surgeons can perform any procedure you demand...what YOU want is someone who specializes in the procedure YOU choose...again, what is your tolerance of pain, your time frame to riding, your insurance...

again, i couldn't travel to Texas for 3 days...i also didn't consider the deep level of atrophy i would have to fight back from post surgery...i used the hamstring technique and after 6 months i am still struggling with recovery...

keep reading...the right decision will come to you...

its like repairing cars....do you want a chevy guy repairing a dodge? its a car right? but if the mechanic isn't specialized you wont get the quickest and easiest repair....

i also agree with Pappy, allografts are not for me...i don't want a microwaved piece of tissue from an unknown donor in my body...i know there are many successful repairs done with those...i couldn't sleep at night thinking about it...

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

Had my follow up from MRI.   ACL tore off and the mri suspects meniscus damage and will have to fix when he goes in there.  Bone is swollen I guess that’s a bruise.

Hope that Dr. Mark comments.  SB process uses the same side patella tendon, use general anesthesia, same day in, same day out.  I ask him about opposite side harvest.  He said only one doctor uses that technique shelbourne, and statics show that it does not heal faster?  He said cells and blood vessels grow only so fast.  Bone plug heals 5 weeks, but takes a while for blood vessels to grown down the new acl.  He also said pro athletics always take one year off from acl reconstruction.  He also said knee surgery patients sometimes, over time, get chronic knee pain.   By harvesting from opposite knee, can increase likely hood of getting knee pain in both knees instead of one?  

So by going back earlier then one year, whats the risk.  Doc said 50% at 6 months.  Then he said motocross'er do not use there acl as much as a running back-cut back and forth.

So not sure what to do, need and 3rd party doctor advice.  Probably go down to shelbourne center and do a visit with him.  Being a ACL is a common injury, wonder if it is necessary.  Grant it we all want the best possible care.   Should check expense at both places too

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

Why?  how do you mean struggling?  Joint week?

1talbotj said:

just remember, surgeons can perform any procedure you demand...what YOU want is someone who specializes in the procedure YOU choose...again, what is your tolerance of pain, your time frame to riding, your insurance...

again, i couldn't travel to Texas for 3 days...i also didn't consider the deep level of atrophy i would have to fight back from post surgery...i used the hamstring technique and after 6 months i am still struggling with recovery...

keep reading...the right decision will come to you...

its like repairing cars....do you want a chevy guy repairing a dodge? its a car right? but if the mechanic isn't specialized you wont get the quickest and easiest repair....

i also agree with Pappy, allografts are not for me...i don't want a microwaved piece of tissue from an unknown donor in my body...i know there are many successful repairs done with those...i couldn't sleep at night thinking about it...

[1talbotj TT Bronze Member]

with my meniscus repair and using the hamstring i had 7 weeks of couch time...then slow recovery for flex and extension of leg...i got atrophy really deep, between the hamstrings always feeling like something was biting me in the back and the surgery on the knee it was hard to get my leg to pump back up...it was a little painfull. so now i bounce between overworking the leg so i limp and working the muscles to get the leg to pump up...i would suggest searching for llamaface posts...he went to see dr. mark and was back riding on his bike in a couple of months...

[DrMark]

As Ronald Regan say, " The problem with so many of our liberal friends is not that they are bad people, but so much of what they know just isn't so."  

And so it is for our South Bend friend. If the healing of the opposite sided graft for ACLR isn't faster, then why do patients done by myself and Dr. Shelbourne, never have to use crutches, casts, or braces, bend their knees just about heel to butt on the first day, walk normally and return to normal life at one week, and return to sports at three months, with a failure rate of about 4-5% which compares with other published failure rates of 8% up to 25% for allografts?

It simple, the graft leg can concentrate on strengthening, and the ACL leg can concentrate on obtaining and maintaining motion, as there is no graft defect to build up.  Rehab occurs concurrently as at least at my gym, every machine is designed to exercise  both knees.

I have a UT channel showing people exercising the day afterward. Check it out.   http://www.youtube.c...r/sandersclinic    

If our South Bend folks are showing the same thing, then Don Shelbourne and I will need to go visit them to learn how to do it their way.

Sadly, we don't get paid a dime more for taking the opposite graft, so docs who are in it for production tend to shy away from this more time consuming, and less remunerative procedure.

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[motosickness TT Member]

Havingfun said:

Had my follow up from MRI.   ACL tore off and the mri suspects meniscus damage and will have to fix when he goes in there.  Bone is swollen I guess that’s a bruise.

Hope that Dr. Mark comments.  SB process uses the same side patella tendon, use general anesthesia, same day in, same day out.  I ask him about opposite side harvest.  He said only one doctor uses that technique shelbourne, and statics show that it does not heal faster?  He said cells and blood vessels grow only so fast.  Bone plug heals 5 weeks, but takes a while for blood vessels to grown down the new acl.  He also said pro athletics always take one year off from acl reconstruction.  He also said knee surgery patients sometimes, over time, get chronic knee pain.   By harvesting from opposite knee, can increase likely hood of getting knee pain in both knees instead of one?  

So by going back earlier then one year, whats the risk.  Doc said 50% at 6 months.  Then he said motocross'er do not use there acl as much as a running back-cut back and forth.

So not sure what to do, need and 3rd party doctor advice.  Probably go down to shelbourne center and do a visit with him.  Being a ACL is a common injury, wonder if it is necessary.  Grant it we all want the best possible care.   Should check expense at both places too

I post my experience with Dr. Mark on here all of the time and I don't know if people take it in or not? So here it goes again! I had both ACL's gone, one knee a 20 year old injury and one a recent injury. Dr. Mark talked me into getting them both done at the same time! I drove to TX from FL 14 HR's for the surgery. I walked out on my own the same day of surgery. I was able to drive back to FL straight through in less then a week on nothing more then advil. I was able to get back on the bike for the first time at 4 months and back close to 100% at the 6 month mark! I own a public MX track in FL and have seen dozens of ACL surgerys and have yet to see anything near my results. If I did I wouldn't have drove to TX.

Since I had both ACL'S replaced at the same time, the opposite knee thing was not an option. I can tell you that seeing a friends results recently from opposite side surgery,(sent him to Doc. Mark) it is by far a better option! His ACL knee was 100% well before the 3 month mark and only had pain from the donor knee! It just the better way to go that's why the good Doc does it that way! Like he said "it's more work" He's does it that way because it's better not just because it's a faster recovery.

I can tell you that everything I was told by Dr. Mark and his staff was 100% accurate and that I thank God for this forum and all I learned from Doc's former patients. I would not get my knee repaired by a Doc who told be it would be 50% at 6 months and a 1 year recovery! I would not go to a Doc that I didn't have access to or know dozens of his patients on a public forum for all to see! Good luck to you...

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

does not sound good..  hope that it changes for you.  still limping at 6 months..  why so long on the couch?

1talbotj said:

with my meniscus repair and using the hamstring i had 7 weeks of couch time...then slow recovery for flex and extension of leg...i got atrophy really deep, between the hamstrings always feeling like something was biting me in the back and the surgery on the knee it was hard to get my leg to pump back up...it was a little painfull. so now i bounce between overworking the leg so i limp and working the muscles to get the leg to pump up...i would suggest searching for llamaface posts...he went to see dr. mark and was back riding on his bike in a couple of months...

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

worried about my legs stiffness now, some swelling and walk with limp?  Been reading where they like to have the leg about normal before surgery?

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

thanks for the post, helps to build my confidence going under the knife.  Don't like being put to sleep or getting drilled on

DrMark said:

I have a UT channel showing people exercising the day afterward. Check it out.   http://www.youtube.c...r/sandersclinic    

Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

[DrMark]

There are only two docs that I know of in this country that put work out like that.  Dr. Shelbourne and myself.  Don't expect the local guy to reproduce that.

[Pappy141 TT Bronze Member]

Dr. Mark and Dr. Shelbourne are knee SPECIALISTS, I honestly wouldn't trust my care to anyone else...Their opposite leg patella harvest technique is cutting edge. Who wants a 6 month to a year recovery when you can be performing normal activities at 3 months? Dr. Mark is a cheap Southwest Airlines ticket away and Dr. Shelbourne is practically in your backyard. The quicker you make your choice the sooner your return to riding/normal life. I had mine done less than 30 days after I injured it...Did it in the Spring and was racing in the Fall. I don't want you to be under the impression that this is a cakewalk, as there's a ton of discomfort and hard work rehabbing your leg/knee. The longest journey starts with the first step...Time to start walking!

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

Thanks for the support.. still not looking forward to the repair, but need to get it fixed.

Made a appointment with Dr Shelbourne, earliest I could jan 5.  I checked some flights to Dr Mark S., was coming up with 500+ range w/o hotel, etc.  Shelbourne is 3.5 hrs from me.

My injury is 7 weeks old this coming sunday.  Still swollen, sore in spots and stiff in some movement.  I don't understand why the top of my calf is still sore.  When I hurt it, top calf and lower thigh mussels burned.  Now just calf is still sore, feels like it is balled up when I bend it in, was real bad, now to as bad.  Going on vacation late jan, so looking at mid feb to have it worked on.

When I got hurt, felt like i broke my leg, my foot, lower shin, calf mussel, knee, lower thigh, and groin all hurt.  Now lower shin, about 6" up from ankle left/front side, upper calf and knee still hurt (mri show bone swallon).  Being it hurt on the side of my knee I thought it was mcl, now looking like that pain is from meniscus?  

When this happen I waited 2 weeks before calling doc, my uncle.  He's an old school old doc, 80 yrs old and still working.  He did not say much, sent me to get xrays, he said I should not be able to walk if I tore one of the acl, mcl, etc.  Well, thinking I had something still wrong, talking with Dr Mark S. here (thanks that you are here) I needed to look more into my knee.  So made a appointment with orthopedic surgeon that verified the damage.  So we are at 7 weeks now and add another 5-6 weeks at least to it before surgery.

I got a recumbent stationary bike last weekend, try and bike everyday and stretch the leg.  Keep doing this before my Appointment with Dr. Shelbourne and see what they say.

[Pappy141 TT Bronze Member]

Please keep us posted, and good luck!

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

ok thanks will do.. still do not understand why my upper calf is stiff and sore?
When I cycle, work my quads, and stretch all the same day, I swear my knee swells up and get stiffer?
Seems like to by now I have good movement in leg extension flat and bent.. still is not right..
Is this normal?

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

update-
They said they want full range back before surgery.  And any exercise that is hindering the injury – causing stiffness to stop.   They said the benefits of working out if causing problems with my knee will only make my surgery recovery worse and possible permanent limitation in my movement.  To cycling, squats, out the door.  I am going to try some lite cycling for one week, if it looks to be hindering my healing – stop.  I have time before surgery.

I have about 4 weeks before I see them again and one more time before surgery to see if my leg movement is where it should be.  If not I have to reschedule, but PT said I should be good in about 1-week if I do the stretches.  They gave me a few stretches to do daily

Looks like I tore upper hamstring, lower thigh mussels along with everything else, probably adds to the stiffness.  Though already, I can tell my leg is loosening up and I been only doing it a  few days.

[Havingfun TT Titanium Member]

not having a lot of luck getting the swelling down yet, but then its only been a little over a week sense I stopped cycling. Starting to think the swelling is from parts flopping around in there, will see in another week. I can tell sometimes parts move around in the joint and jam it up and cause pain.  Then if you work the joint a little to move it out, it is fine again (as best as fine can be Certain leg stretches, like pulling the leg (tibia) in causes something (meniscus probably ) to get in the wrong spot. That stretch is one they told me not to force.

[Rude Riders TT Bronze Member]

Good luck with your surgery man. I just discovered this thread and all the great info..Unfortunetly i had my left ACL and meniscus repair on the 6th of Dec, 2011. Im going in tommorrow for my 6 week evaluation. Hopefully it goes well. Pt trainer said im doing really good on my recovery and gaining my strength back fast. Cept i had an allograph from an achillies tendon. (like i said i wish i woulda known all this great info before) Get your strength up to the best possible that you can before your op date is all i can say. My leg shrunk very quickly