79 replies to this topic

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

just a quick post with better quality reference pictures of what stuck rings look like:







going to let the piston soak 12-14 hours, then try removing the stuck rings again. no need in hurrying, i believe OEM parts will take 2.4 years to be pressed from onobtanium, then delieverd to my local dealer in another 5-6 months. :-)


and the valves are apparently still good after a 2+ day soak... no drips =

[Noble Get Help Now]

My question "what did you find in your engine" was intended to mean are your rings stuck?

Apparently - yes.  Over heating? hmm, don't know.  If the rings are stuck because the ring lands are damaged, you need a new piston.  You will know more when you get the rings free.  You may have to just yard them out of there with force.  If the rings are stuck from over heating and the cooling system did not fail, I would look for problems with oil system.  The piston is cooled with an oil jet that squirts oil up under the piston.

The Nikosil coated bore will not "scratch up" with a normal hone.  It takes a diamond hone to scratch the bore.  A ball hone will clean the bore without doing much to scratch it.  I just use red Scotchbrite pads and call it good.  The Nikosil coating is porous enough to hold oil so the typical hone marks are not critical to break-in.  The Nikosil coated bore are very common on motorcycles with aluminum cylinders but not so common on cars that still use cast iron blocks.

I guess your method of testing the valves for leakage works but I just pour gas into the ports from the other side and look for immediate results.  I think I would still look at the valves.

Apparently your hearing air leakage at the intake and ex ports was a false indication.  All the air test leakage was past the rings.

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

Noble said:

My question "what did you find in your engine" was intended to mean are your rings stuck?

Apparently - yes.  Over heating? hmm, don't know.  If the rings are stuck because the ring lands are damaged, you need a new piston.  You will know more when you get the rings free.  You may have to just yard them out of there with force.  If the rings are stuck from over heating and the cooling system did not fail, I would look for problems with oil system.  The piston is cooled with an oil jet that squirts oil up under the piston.

The Nikosil coated bore will not "scratch up" with a normal hone.  It takes a diamond hone to scratch the bore.  A ball hone will clean the bore without doing much to scratch it.  I just use red Scotchbrite pads and call it good.  The Nikosil coating is porous enough to hold oil so the typical hone marks are not critical to break-in.  The Nikosil coated bore are very common on motorcycles with aluminum cylinders but not so common on cars that still use cast iron blocks.

I guess your method of testing the valves for leakage works but I just pour gas into the ports from the other side and look for immediate results.  I think I would still look at the valves.

Apparently your hearing air leakage at the intake and ex ports was a false indication.  All the air test leakage was past the rings.

sorry, misunderstood the question above. hope to find nothing else - we'll see. looking back, the timing hole was whooshing the oil up towards my ear (i got an ear full) and i thought the sounds were coming from intake and exaust - i was wrong again. :-)

i think you may have a twin working here in birmingham, or at least both of you have intimate knowledge with all things engine. he said almost word for word what you just wrote.

talked to my dad for a few today- he thinks i have a burnt valve, but he loves burnt valves for some reason. he also suggested immersing the channels with solvent like you suggest above. more liquid volume = more pressure on the valve seat = more chance for a leak. good idear. i'll do that in the morning.

thanks man, you're helping a ton. basicly walking me through everything - awesome !

afterthought:

i'm very carefully walking a .003" (1/10th mm) hardened shim around the groove above and below each ring. i don't believe the land has wiped over the ring yet (wear) as the shim isn't actually cutting any material, but there is gunky black crap coming out, some grit too.

i had some brass shims, but the carbon (i guess) was too abrasive and ruined one very nice starrett shim, so i switched to steel.

btw, the engine rebuilder was quite happy to point out that the piston ARP (i think) was a very cheap cast product suzuki was using. or whoever. he could have hit my wallet for a new wiseco, bore, coat, bore and hone again, but he didn't. i'm buying their shop breakfast this friday as a thank you, wouldn't let me pay them.

[Noble Get Help Now]

Oddly enough I was just in Birmingham, but no relatives there.  I attended the Barber Vintage Festival.

Suzuki pistons are high quality forgings not castings. The gunky black crap is the problem. But why? Varnish from old gas in the motor? Crappy oil?  Someone put something in the oil? It ate the air filter?, ??

I don't remember the history on this motorcycle, how long you owned it that kind of thing.  It is just very odd for a motor that is running fine to suddenly stick the rings and no deposits elsewhere on the piston.

A recoat is - strip, coat, hone.  You would not bore the cylinder unless you wanted to go to an oversize piston to increase the displacement.  Warn bores are simply recoated to the original size. Recoat is about $200.

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

Noble said:

Oddly enough I was just in Birmingham, but no relatives there.  I attended the Barber Vintage Festival.

Suzuki pistons are high quality forgings not castings. The gunky black crap is the problem. But why? Varnish from old gas in the motor? Crappy oil?  Someone put something in the oil? It ate the air filter?, ??

I don't remember the history on this motorcycle, how long you owned it that kind of thing.  It is just very odd for a motor that is running fine to suddenly stick the rings and no deposits elsewhere on the piston.

A recoat is - strip, coat, hone.  You would not bore the cylinder unless you wanted to go to an oversize piston to increase the displacement.  Warn bores are simply recoated to the original size. Recoat is about $200.

Barber is awesome, anytime, anyday. Next time you're down, holler and I'll take you on some fun roads and/or trails if you like.

The gas question, I normally fill up at the same station 1/4 mile from the house. (Shrug) normally use 20w50 castrol or the dello stuff. It was nearing oil change time, but not low or terribly black than normal. Haven't checked the oil filter yet, but the air filter is intact.

History: bought it 1 1/2 years ago with 8000 miles. Replaced stator immediately. Change oil every 1000 miles or sooner. Oil the air filter weekly after drying post cleaning. I don't beat on the bike, wheelie much, and try never to lug it either. Its 80/20 woods to road ratio use. The 3 times its its seen the rev limiter were from get offs in the woods. Never smoked, never clanked or screeched. Never seen the red light for overheating condition. Never smelled ratiator fluid or boiled over.

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

i have a friend that's offering up a manual decompressor off his S's kick start kit, if i can use it on mine. (the manual decompressor, not the kick start)

looking at the parts fiche from the E and S models on bikebandit, it looks like the S head is cast the same, the bosses are there but the E machining isn't done to it according to the fiche.

so the question is: can the manual decompression be fitted to the S head, or wil it require drilling and tapping holes in fairly precise locations ?

thanks !

I'm also considering just deleting the auto-decomp and living with it. :-)

[E.Marquez]

ohgood said:

i have a friend that's offering up a manual decompressor off his S's kick start kit, if i can use it on mine. (the manual decompressor, not the kick start)

looking at the parts fiche from the E and S models on bikebandit, it looks like the S head is cast the same, the bosses are there but the E machining isn't done to it according to the fiche.

so the question is: can the manual decompression be fitted to the S head, or wil it require drilling and tapping holes in fairly precise locations ?

thanks !

I'm also considering just deleting the auto-decomp and living with it. :-)

No the S head is not machined for the manual decomp parts.. And it is a several step machining process, not just drilling a few holes.
the JIG required has been made and used by one company, but he no longer offers the service. Another user here that is a machinist and has some very high end CNC machines at his disposal machined an S head for this decomp assembly,, but again, only doable at a price point, because it was Free...


New head is your best bet if you want a manual decomp, or make friends with a very competent machinist.

I started building the JIG for the operation my mil is manual, non CNC, so a JIG is required.). Just for giggles, and after several hours of playing with my head ... The DRZ's head.. that is.. I came to the understanding, i'd need at least one S head to be machined that was an otherwise throwaway piece just to get the JIG right.

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

E.Marquez said:

No the S head is not machined for the manual decomp parts.. And it is a several step machining process, not just drilling a few holes.
the JIG required has been made and used by one company, but he no longer offers the service. Another user here that is a machinist and has some very high end CNC machines at his disposal machined an S head for this decomp assembly,, but again, only doable at a price point, because it was Free...


New head is your best bet if you want a manual decomp, or make friends with a very competent machinist.

I started building the JIG for the operation my mil is manual, non CNC, so a JIG is required.). Just for giggles, and after several hours of playing with my head ... The DRZ's head.. that is.. I came to the understanding, i'd need at least one S head to be machined that was an otherwise throwaway piece just to get the JIG right.

I figured as much. I could handle the machining, but no longer work in a shop, so no equipment at my disposal anymore. Ah well, I can always keep my eye on fleabay for a good E head or hey, complete engine to swap. We'll see.

I am so ready to put this together and ride again. Itching !

[Noble Get Help Now]

You do not really need a manual compression release.  I have the E head and all the parts needed to install the manual release.  I removed the auto compression release years ago.  I never got around to fitting the manual release.  It requires some improvising with the Acerbis tank and I have just never bothered with it.

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

head, cylinder, piston, and pin is ready for lube and assembly. gaskets, rings and new circlips are awaiting pickup.

i'm assuming i will need:
black rtv (valve cover gasket half moons need a dab?)
copper spray for head gasket
something for assembly lube for the cams ?
a tightening sequence for the head bolts- i believe eddie has been quoted a few times for 44ft/lb. - is that all at once or is there a 30ft/lb initial ?

also, engine ice or 50/50 car coolant ?

piston to cylinder just needs a tiny wipe of engine oil on the skirt like most other engines, IE: dry assemble for run-in ?

cool

[E.Marquez]

ohgood said:

head, cylinder, piston, and pin is ready for lube and assembly. gaskets, rings and new circlips are awaiting pickup.

i'm assuming i will need:
black rtv (valve cover gasket half moons need a dab?)

pea sized dab at best

Quote

copper spray for head gasket

Not critical  on a non high CR build, or a 94mm and smaller bore. But done right two light coats, let dry over night, it wont hurt anything, even if not needed.. So sure, why not.

Quote

something for assembly lube for the cams ?

Oil, unless your not going to start it for a few weeks

Quote

a tightening sequence for the head bolts- i believe eddie has been quoted a few times for 44ft/lb. - is that all at once or is there a 30ft/lb initial ?

43 ft lb final TQ, work up to it in 3 steps. 15, 30, 43.. or the like, even and final TQ is what counts.

Quote

also, engine ice or 50/50 car coolant ?

What ever, low silicate, Ethylene glycol.. or what ever you want to spend money on.

Quote

piston to cylinder just needs a tiny wipe of engine oil on the skirt like most other engines, IE: dry assemble for run-in ?

cool

Yes, correct

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

progress ....









copper coat should be dry tonight, stuff is sitting in assembly lube now- gonna dry assemble the piston/cylinder and hope for a good seat - tomorrow *- ugh always tomorrow

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

Lots to do still before a ride, but it lives
Without the help of eric, noble, william, eddie, and more here, id still be chasing my tail. Thanks guys, you rock. Karma updated.


2004 Suzuki DRZ new top end first start mcct

...it lives after much help from teh guys on thumpertalk, bamarides, and my dad's steady, patient hands. he stopped by on his way home from yankeeland and said a few things, like:

this is stupid, will attract carbon, and ugly


this is stupid, needs more pistons, and it's dark in here


this is stupid, it's too dirty to put together, and my back hurts


i can't see no damned arrow, this is stupid

ditto


cleanest my valve cover has ever been, or will ever be


everything i had apart today smoked, but very little from the exhaust. maybe that's for tomorrow with some high-load run in. tons of things to double check, you know, like motor mounts, oil, oil screens and stuff. hopefully will be ready for some dirt saturday.

it lived long enough to carry me all the way home, then coughed it's last right in my garage. fortunate stuff, huh ?

Edited by ohgood, 27 October 2011 - 06:41 PM.
mo pictures

[Noble Get Help Now]

No doubt you are using fresh oil.  Do you have any of the old oil that came out?  It would be interesting to do an oil analysis on the old stuff.

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

Noble said:

No doubt you are using fresh oil.  Do you have any of the old oil that came out?  It would be interesting to do an oil analysis on the old stuff.

Yes, fresh oil. The analysis is a big expense for me in college right now, otherwise this would be one time I would spring for it. I'll run-in then change, and run a magnet through it... also wipe the drain plug , screens and filter to see if anything disturbing is there.

it was a very good thing for me to hear it fire and run. There is always some skepticism when doing this kind of thing.  

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

UPDATE, 2/22/2013, 20,800 miles (8,000 miles later)

the bike has been fine. i've actually had zero reliability problems since this ring job. i -should- have replaced the timing chain while everything was apart, but didn't. now i'm nearing the end of adjustment with the manual tensioner. i'm going to assume this is because the auto tensioner had used (improperly) the majority of the chains life before i installed the manual adjuster.



gas, tires, and oil changes (consumables) are the only expenses for the last 8000 miles. finally slapped a 'new' chain and cogs on it. the last chain would ring like sleigh bells (bike parked) if the wind blew, so it was due. no really, it did.



this bike is fun.

[jawknee21 TT Platinum Member]

ohgood, on 22 February 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

UPDATE, 2/22/2013, 20,800 miles (8,000 miles later)

the bike has been fine. i've actually had zero reliability problems since this ring job. i -should- have replaced the timing chain while everything was apart, but didn't. now i'm nearing the end of adjustment with the manual tensioner. i'm going to assume this is because the auto tensioner had used (improperly) the majority of the chains life before i installed the manual adjuster.



gas, tires, and oil changes (consumables) are the only expenses for the last 8000 miles. finally slapped a 'new' chain and cogs on it. the last chain would ring like sleigh bells (bike parked) if the wind blew, so it was due. no really, it did.



this bike is fun.

how is the weather in southern alabama in april/may?

[ohgood TT Silver Member]

jawknee21, on 22 February 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

how is the weather in southern alabama in april/may?

HOT and humid. you can cut a plug out of the air and take it with you almost.

[jawknee21 TT Platinum Member]

ohgood, on 05 March 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

HOT and humid. you can cut a plug out of the air and take it with you almost.

hot sounds good. what about rain?

[zz3gmc TT Platinum Member]

Glad I found this thread! Im having a similar problem with my sister inlaws KLX400. Been pulling my hair out with it! Glad to hear you got it straightened out.