Pro-action Suspension


60 replies to this topic
  • KennyMc

Posted October 17, 2011 - 06:28 PM

#21

Is this with the YZ forks?

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 17, 2011 - 07:40 PM

#22

Is this with the YZ forks?


Not yet.

Stock WR suspension, re-sprung, re-valved with ProAction. Spring rates a little soft for me, but it's what I has lying around.

Then we try the YZ suspension, front and rear, also re-valved and re-sprung, by a national suspension company, with correct spring rates for my 260lb 6'4" frame.

  • miweber929

Posted October 18, 2011 - 04:04 AM

#23

So why would you do it twice? I'd think going through the time, expense and effort of valving something with incorrect springs for your weight would be fairly useless. If you have YZ forks (and maybe a shock it sounds like?) to go on why not to those right away?

Just curious. Not sure how fast/hard you ride but I've never run into the stock forks on my 04 stopping working mid-stroke so I'd imagine it's quite hard. Weird though it's fine on whoops but not successive bumps.

Mike

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 18, 2011 - 05:29 AM

#24

So why would you do it twice? I'd think going through the time, expense and effort of valving something with incorrect springs for your weight would be fairly useless. If you have YZ forks (and maybe a shock it sounds like?) to go on why not to those right away?

Just curious. Not sure how fast/hard you ride but I've never run into the stock forks on my 04 stopping working mid-stroke so I'd imagine it's quite hard. Weird though it's fine on whoops but not successive bumps.

Mike


I'm not the only person that rides this bike. It is a 'spare' bike too.
So, the 220lb set up is appropriate for several riders, including myself.

The WR components are now done, and ready to install/use/fine tune.

The YZ components are not all here yet. They will need rebuilding, re-valving, and re-springing.

I am doing this because I can. I love the way the WR handles until it gets really rough, and I would like to find a solution. My other bikes don't have this issue at all, and it would be great to have the WR handle terrain like the newer MX bikes do.

Some of the terrain I ride is extremely rocky, and difficult to retain traction.

Here is an unsuccessful attempt at a typical trail in the Rand Mountains: Imagine trying to go up that trail with suspension that does not follow the terrain properly............!

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  • Derwud

Posted October 18, 2011 - 01:36 PM

#25

I'm not the only person that rides this bike. It is a 'spare' bike too.
So, the 220lb set up is appropriate for several riders, including myself.

The WR components are now done, and ready to install/use/fine tune.

The YZ components are not all here yet. They will need rebuilding, re-valving, and re-springing.

I am doing this because I can. I love the way the WR handles until it gets really rough, and I would like to find a solution. My other bikes don't have this issue at all, and it would be great to have the WR handle terrain like the newer MX bikes do.

Some of the terrain I ride is extremely rocky, and difficult to retain traction.

Here is an unsuccessful attempt at a typical trail in the Rand Mountains: Imagine trying to go up that trail with suspension that does not follow the terrain properly............!

Posted Image


Are you the one hugging the CR....

I am very interested in this thread and can't wait to see what the cheapest/easiest fix is.. Might have to buy your leftovers...

  • gsa102

Posted October 18, 2011 - 01:39 PM

#26

I am very interested in this thread and can't wait to see what the cheapest/easiest fix is..


As am I! My WR put me in the hospital when it deflected off a rock. I want to make it better before I race it again.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 18, 2011 - 02:53 PM

#27

As am I! My WR put me in the hospital when it deflected off a rock. I want to make it better before I race it again.


Ouch!

Yeah I've had the bar ripped out of my hands one too many times...even with the Scotts.....

  • Derwud

Posted October 18, 2011 - 04:27 PM

#28

As am I! My WR put me in the hospital when it deflected off a rock. I want to make it better before I race it again.


I have a fake knee after my second ride on my WR.. So this is very interesting to me!! I was on a small track and went over a small jump and into some braking bumps to a bermed turn, well bike didn't turn, went over the berm and my right leg was pile driven into the berm (At least that's what I think happened, kind of blacked out from the pain!!)..

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 18, 2011 - 06:20 PM

#29

We shall see.

Pro-Action three-way valve on the rear with upper and lower shim stack changes.

Pro-Action three-way bottom valve and new shim stacks, with stock mid valve stacks, and 100mm oil height.

I noted that there are only precision shims, washers, and springs on the Pro-Action stuff.
No Zinc Chromate 'Home Depot' washers and springs....

Will set sag for relative equality front and rear, even though it is under sprung a bit.

I will be going off of these ratios:

Front suspension static sag = 14% ( available travel in mm X .14)
Front suspension rider sag = 25% (X .25 = Rider sag)
Rear suspension static sag = 11% (X .11 = static sag)
Rear suspension rider = 34% of available travel (X .34 = rider sag)

BY THE ABOVE CALCULATIONS:


** FRONT SUSPENSION TRAVEL = 300MM

** REAR SUSPENSION TRAVEL = 304.8

SO, IDEAL SAG SETTING WOULD BE:

FRONT: 42MM / 75MM
REAR: 33.5MM / 103.63


Since I am overweight for the springs, my goal will be to match the rear sag ratio to the front, what ever that turns out to be.

So, if the front is off by x percent, I will try an make the rear the same.
More than likely it will mean a rear sag of 30mm / 108mm like I used to have it, until I went for 100mm race sag, no matter what (which gave me 12mm static sag.....and a spring compressed more than 15mm...!)

When I do the YZ suspension, I will try to get exact with the ratios.

  • gsa102

Posted October 19, 2011 - 08:28 AM

#30

So that is how you figure out the front end preload/sag! Everybody knows how to do the rear, but it is hard to find how to figure out the numbers for the front.

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  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 19, 2011 - 02:50 PM

#31

Installed the shock, set the sag (more later) the Pro Action rear shock upgrade was IMMEDIATELY noticeable.

The rear wheel TRACKS without squatting now, and did not jump side to side.

Granted, the stock shock was not very good, and the ESP valving didn't help, and I only spent 3 laps on the local track.


Cannot adjust sag very close; rear spring is too soft.

The ideal sag numbers are 35/103, and I can get 25/110.
That's where I left it.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 19, 2011 - 06:22 PM

#32

YZ forks came in (the right ones this time), and the wrong ones sold on ebay for $21.00 more than I paid for them, including shipping......:thumbsup:
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With the Proaction stock stuff on it, doing some much needed basic maintenence...
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  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 22, 2011 - 03:20 PM

#33

ProAction suspension test tomorrow at Gorman.
Got the 6.3 but I'm too tired from todays ride on the KX to put in on the WR.
So, I'll go under-sprung, and like it.
I can already tell the rear shock is working great. It tracks up un-even jumps and whoops like never before.
This could be fun!

  • MANIAC998

Posted October 23, 2011 - 03:24 AM

#34

Let us know how it goes. We're all watching to see if you can find away to get this working for your situation. Maniac

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 23, 2011 - 05:22 AM

#35

Let us know how it goes. We're all watching to see if you can find away to get this working for your situation. Maniac


Today will be mellow trail riding, not much whoop-age, but tons of low-traction and concrete-hard dirt.....

We'll see if these doo-hickeys work or not...

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Edited by Krannie, October 23, 2011 - 05:40 AM.


  • Derwud

Posted October 23, 2011 - 03:28 PM

#36

Well???

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted October 23, 2011 - 05:19 PM

#37

Well???


30 Miles inside Hungry Valley park today.

>>> You were there derwud2! You know, kind of!

Bottom line is the shock mod is stellar.

Even with the under sprung condition, with some additional compression clicks (2) the rear tracked almost as good as my KX, and was very plush. Never kicked up unless it was a completely square-edge hole, which was only once. After figuring out the clickers, it really started to track in even the really slippery stuff. It felt firm, but plush. If you jump up and down on the seat when sitting still, it feels soft, but underway if feels firm.

Did several runs through 4th and 5th gear whoops and it was ruler straight, and no swap feeling. This with the steering damper turned all the way off. On the really deep whoops (deep for Gorman: about 25-30") it was tough, but do-able. Had to be going wide open.....which is hard to do for too long when you are old, and the bike is 280lbs....but it worked very well considering.

Lots of mini-jumps on Mesa and Brome trail that were pretty good. Tried taking them rear-first, nose-first, and combined, with no issues. I could never do that with the other suspensions. Before, when you landed, if your weight was not perfect, you would loose traction in the front, rear, or both, making turning jumps no damn fun at all.....and I did several flying-W corrections before, when trying to turn in the air. Not much air mind you........!


Fork Mods:


This is a little tougher to access, for me, but I was very impressed.
The WR is shorter, very stiff frame, and has a steep head angle compared to any other bike I've ridden, so some of my criticisms of the stock forks may be attributed to that, instead of their actual quality. I'm just not sure.

All I know is that I rode all day with the steering damper off, on purpose (except in the really fast deep sand), to see how the forks reacted to square bumps and rocks.

I did increase the compression 2 clicks and then one click more after increasing the rear compression, and then it was very balanced.

The un-predictable over-steer issues with the stock suspension are gone, completely. The inability to change lines mid turn, are gone too. Lots of traction in the front, and lots of confidence.

The front still seemed 'lacking' in it's ability to react to stutter bumps, but it was now much better than the last ride, with the ESP rear shock mods.
Now with a competent rear, I could stiffen up the front to match, and it worked.

I did not deflect once all day, accept once crossing a diagonal deep rut, which bottomed my tire against the rim. Thought it was the fork at first, but I'm 90% sure it wasn't. And my wrists didn't mind it at all.

If you've ever ridden Gorman, it's a cross between very rough-coarse sand, and rock hard clay with varying amounts of silt on top, hiding the rain ruts from last rain. It can be hairy.

OK, so how would I compare it to Dave J's Smart Performance suspension set up?

Well, to be fair, I'm absolutely positive the two WR suspension set-ups he did for me were done wrong, by mistake. I know for a fact one of them was, cause we took it apart to examine it. So how fair can it be to compare a 'mistake' to the ProAction mods? Not very fair, in my mind.

Having said that, and having spoken with and read about DJ's preference in suspension tuning, it's clear to me that he prefers the 'low-compliance' method of tuning (stiff, linear action) where someone like Factory Connection prefers the 'high-compliance' method (initially soft, then progressivly stiffer).

I would say the ProAction is closer to the later, if that means anything.

I would not call what I rode today 'Plush' like a re-valved KYB dual cartridge fork, probably because it is just a bit under sprung for my weight. But, that is the way I have been riding the this and the last two WR's: with the exact same spring set on all three. So, I believe at least the comparison is valid.

I received the 6.3 (Thanks Samir) which I will try out next week. Then we will see if the front is under sprung too. According to my sag numbers it is not, but it feels like it rides a bit low.

I hope all this rambling was helpful to someone . I know that I am pleased with the results: I've ridden (owned) a clapped out 2003 with stock springs, then stiffer springs, then re-valved by ESP. Didn't like it much. I rode (owned) a 2007 with stock suspension, and had great fun, accept it wouldn't track a line, jump, ride whoops, or go down hill with any precision. I put stiffer springs on it, and it became downright dangerous and I dislocated my shoulder.....Then the (current) 2nd '07 came along, with ESP valving and 5.8/.46 springs, and it too was fun, but deflected so bad it was deadly. Add the stiffer 6.0/.50 springs and ASRacing re-valve to the front and it was ride-able.

Now with the ProAction progressive piston-valve mod and re-shimming, it is the best WR I've ridden yet.

More to come............

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  • MANIAC998

Posted October 24, 2011 - 03:34 AM

#38

Now that's a write-up! Great information! Glad to see your finally getting the WR dialed in for you. Maniac

  • gsa102

Posted November 03, 2011 - 08:28 AM

#39

Any more info, Krannie?

I actually rode my WR on an MX track last week, and thought my East Coast Suspension setup did well on the jumps. I still did not feel confident trying to hold a line in the deeper ruts. I would guess I have a 'low-compliance' setup, as it feels stiff but linear.

However, I am a slow C woods rider, and the bike was set up for an A woods rider. So it was probably pretty close for an MX setup for me.

  • Krannie McKranface

Posted November 03, 2011 - 02:47 PM

#40

Any more info, Krannie?

I actually rode my WR on an MX track last week, and thought my East Coast Suspension setup did well on the jumps. I still did not feel confident trying to hold a line in the deeper ruts. I would guess I have a 'low-compliance' setup, as it feels stiff but linear.

However, I am a slow C woods rider, and the bike was set up for an A woods rider. So it was probably pretty close for an MX setup for me.


I plan to ride it again this weekend. I still think about the last ride on the WR with the new suspension more than I have thought about any other ride, in a while. I rode my KX last weekend; it's the high-speed desert bike, and the WR is the 'other' bike. I really want to try it at Rowher Flats this weekend, but will probably end up at the Los Padres National Forest, where others are riding. Rowher Flats is like a chuck-holed freeway, with very hard dirt, and embedded jagged rocks, and we average about 17mph over 35 miles. Perfect for a suspension test. LPNF is very tight single track forest and maintained fire roads. It's WR heaven.....




 
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