To start off with I have an 07 wr250f, converted into a yz250f basically. I am not a true motor head. I consider myself decent garage mechanic.Servicing my suspension, rebuilding my motors ect...  If I have any questions I pretty much harass William1. Thanks Will for sharing some of your knowledge with me. About a year ago I sent my head off to someone not to be named for new valves and freshly cut seats. And I just couldnt get the jetting rite.  With Will's help we discovered the problem was with the stator. So now I am at the point of the bike running very good. After that I was hooked on messing with my jetting to learn more about the functions of each jet. And how that affects the entire range of the throttle. Now my bike is running great.

So when I saw Mark posting about the coil it sparked some interest LOL I pm'd him expressing an interest to test it. So about a week and 1/2 go by and I receive the coil and the series 1 plug ( I think that's what it called) I liked the feature of the coil screwing into the plug, so it wouldn't come loose. I have had push the oem coil back and the plug more than a few times. The install of the coil wasn't as easy as expected. The coil would hit the breather pipe on the valve cover. So I removed the pipe, installed the plug and super coil. And then reinstalled the breather pipe. I also put some threebond on the pipe for safe measure. Starting the bike I could hear the big sounded great. Kinda like after rebuilding a tired engine.  After it's rebuilt it just sound strong and healthy again. A buddy of mine came over without knowledge of the coil and made the comment that it sound very good. So yesterday I took the bike out for it's first run with the plug and coil. I am very happy with the product. The bike just runs stronger the entire throttle range.  I would compare it to adding a pipe for a better bottom or top end. As we know with most pipes there is a trade off. But the coil and plug added extra power everywhere.

I have decided to keep it and believe it is a great addition to my bike!

Chris

Edited by meyer1son, 11 June 2011 - 12:03 AM.
added text

meyer1son said:

It would be a better test if it were blinded -- Someone switches between the two configurations and you ride it without knowledge of which one is connected. Even with that, seat-of-the-pants power comparisons are notoriously inaccurate.

The dyno is really the closest thing we have to unbiased testing. It's so easy to test modifications and get repeatable results with meaningful data.

I really wish TaKaI would have posted the test results that he kept referring to. If the reports actually confirm all the claims they make about their products, we wouldn't have to debate the technology.

sniperpat469 said:

If a dyno can't tell you the whole story, how do you objectively and quantitatively measure performance?

I'm no dyno expert, but it seems to me that you could measure performance at any throttle setting, not just WOT.

Just askin'...

I don't like to spend money i don’t have to
And i don't need someones dyno numbers to tell me how fast my bike is
I know if my bike is running good. If its running good im happy. If im happy i can justify spending 200 dollars.
My bike runs better than it did before i installed it
.Im happy.
What performance part can you even put on your bike fo 200 dollars?
Easier starting is just gravy

sniperpat469 said:

That would be great! I/we look forward to seeing the results.

I think dyno testing gets mentioned so frequently because it is the only formal testing data that is known to most riders. For example, when the magazines compare exhaust systems, they publish dyno results alongside their test rider's comments. As you mentioned, the dyno doesn't tell the whole story, as those riders rarely (if ever) all choose the same pipe as their favorite. The dynamometer just gives us additional information.

sniperpat469 said:

The only other "spark enhancer" product that caught my attention was the "iCat" a few years back. If I recall correctly, the company never provided anything more substantial than customer anecdotes. I believe a motorcycle magazine published a test -- timed acceleration runs, IIRC -- showing no improvements.

As I'm sure you're aware, the QuickShot only effects the accelerator pump, so it's a perfect example of product that will not show dyno gains.

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That would be fanatastic! Although, TaKaI wrote that "back to back" dyno tests have already been performed on "dozens of different platforms". He specifically mentioned only automotive platforms, but publishing even those results would go a long way toward answering our questions.

pantaz said:

Also to add to what was said. If you check our website there are 2 TaKaI facilities. One where engineering is done and another where product development is finalized and further refined in Florida. Several tests are done spanning several years of R&D and development. TaKaI has officially been around for at least 4 years in the development stages. Needless to say there are lots of dynos and feedback in regards to several iterations of ignition coils, ignition boosters and spark plugs to find the best combination on several applications but those dynos done in engineering are purely development related.

Concerning ignition coils there have been at least a half a dozen or more test and trial configurations for various applications and a couple final configurations passed onto our Florida facility for final testing on the track (in regards to MX), real world with real riders and other various forms of testing including further dynos that are "finalized" and put to bed for promotional purposes.

I am engineering, here we can't share allot of detail in our development work or who is doing our testing until things are put to bed, OK'd, verified with other parties such as releasing our tester information, so to speak. I can't go around just dropping names, it's unprofessional unless various parties come to an agreement and there is an understanding. As far as development information, there is only so much detail I can share, as MSD Mike said, you never know who is watching and we have certain trade secrets that need to stay that way for an "advantage over the competition" purpose. There is no company that can share this type of information, if I shared all the engineering data and technological advantages of our products, I am sure other companies would follow suit and that means our R&D money goes down the tube.

What I can say is that they are all tested to work by various sources, and work very well. I wouldn't have sent a coil and plug out to someone on this forum to test if we weren't that confident.

sniperpat469 said:

If steady state dyno runs don't reveal significant improvements, what about time trial data? It doesn't require particularly sophisticated equipment or lots of time/money. Obviously, you want to collect basic data such as distance and time. It would be helpful if you also collect data that might influence engine performance, e.g. atmospheric conditions such temperature, barometric pressure, and relative humidity. These are all easy to measure or obtain from known sources.

Basic time trials are cheap and easy to do, but you could take the next step and collect transient data. Accurately logging wheel speed will give you detailed acceleration information, as well as transient power/torque. If you correlate all of that with engine data, such as bore/stroke and default AFR, you might find that your product makes the greatest impact for certain engines under certain conditions. You might find that a different mixture with your product yields even more performance. This is all valuable information for a prospective customer.

The key is to collect lots of data under many different conditions and perform straightforward analysis. Accurately logging wheel speed does not require great engineering skills. It just takes a bit of discipline and follow through.

It would be best if you could make the raw data available for anyone else to independently analyze. You wouldn't be revealing any trade secrets, just providing plenty of information for a potential buyer to make objective purchasing decisions. Keep in mind there are many different kinds of buyers. Some want more information, others not so much. You're not selling potato chips or soft drinks (even those guys offer nutrition data). The more information you provide, the larger your potential market will be.

Just tryin' to help...

I agree with Pat. I've been here done that on other forums as well. The sceptics will always be the sceptics regardless of who tries it, who dynos it, who proves it works and who endorses it. Oh yeah, didn't I say that in one of my first posts.... and here it is. A good rider or driver knows their bike / automobile and engines inside and out will pinpoint any issues or changes he or she feels even if it is VERY minor.

What bugs me the most is, first we are asked for an independent tester and independent results from someone here on thumpertalk, provided and proven a good product. Then we are asked for a dyno, provided. Then we are asked for a blind tester because a third party tester isn't a fair comparison, proven and provided with a HIGHLY credible source. Now it's to provide all our raw engineering data, wheel speed et all. Where does it stop?

Sometimes you just have to lay your trust in someone, not everyone sells snake oil or is out to get people, I need to sleep at night knowing our customers are happy. Like I said, there is nothing wrong with trying it out and putting your trust in someone. Also, there are many checks and balances in our company to ensure our customers get the best products possible.

Again, plain and simple, as I said, we won't provide raw engineering data, EVER and non of our competitors will either. Our employees, save for engineers, don't have raw data so they can run to a competitor and sell the information. The same goes with automotive manufacturers. Why do people think it is so hard to make tuning software these days? It's ALL under lock and key to only the most trusted individuals. Most of the time it needs to be reverse engineered which takes hundreds of hours to accomplish. Would we pay for that information and release it as well? Of course not.

On a last word, I don't see the sceptics here in design or testing and if they were in the field they would know that while under employment at these places contracts are signed and data is strictly monitored / prevented from reaching the wrong sources. Collecting data on equipment costs money. 8 hours of my time would cost an employer about $1000 so why would I log and test engineering information, even if it was for only an hour and post it for everyone else to use? It's our information that was paid for by us, it's not free and the purpose is to provide a good product. It's no different anywhere else and just because we are posting here doesn't mean it's public domain information. IMHO it seems like there are people here squeezing information for their own purposes, not because it is required.

I've been in the EE field for about 10 years designing in tier1 industry for the big 3, have several contacts in the automotive industry and in engineering and taught at the EE professor level but I suppose proof of employment would be required as well? Really, lighten up gents.

I have a highly modified 2008 Yamaha YZ250F motor, and am using an MSD ignition on the stock coil right now.  I have a feeling my stock coil is ready to bite the dust.

Is the Takai aftermarket coil plug and play?  The part of the website that shows how to buy and products available etc seems to not want to work.  So how much am I looking at for an aftermarket setup for my 08 Yamaha YZ250F?

intensem1rider said:

The website checkout system should be fully functional in a week or two, sorry for the inconvenience. The best bet until then is to call us directly to get the right price and part in your hands. I believe off the top of my head the YZ250F coil kit is $219.99. BTW, yes, all of our products are made to be direct plug and play parts on all applications and include all provisions / harnesses if required for a clean install.

intensem1rider said:

You will be glad you bought it!

sniperpat469 said:

At this point, I'd be happy to see ANY data.

sniperpat469 said:

My current off-road bike is a XR400R with Wiseco 440cc kit, Stage 1 cam, Hinson clutch, WB exhaust, Edelbrock Quicksilver carb, OEM ignition. Since we're talking about engine stuff, I won't bother with the list of everything else.

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I looked at every page on your company's website. Honestly, I did not find any test data. If I missed it, please post a link.

There are three threads: TaKaI M-RAIKOU Super Coils, AtoMX Ignition Booster, and TaKaI Super Coil and spark plug review. Within those threads I find one post comparing resistance and inductance values between yours and a non-specific Denso coil. There is a link to a page for WeaponX Performance, showing tests of their products. The only other "data" is a partial dyno chart and two graphics comparing spark plug resistance.

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And I responded to his post, offering suggestions on how to perform more objective tests.  

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I don't personally know anyone using your products. My curiosity was aroused when TaKaI started the "AtoMX Ignition Booster" thread. As I mentioned in post #9 of this thread, the product name and description reminded me of the "iCAT Ignition Spark Enhancer". My skepticism started when he posted that "dyno chart", then refused to explain why he contradicted his own description.

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Where have I posted anything that indicates I "need to calm down"? I truly want to know.

You guys are promoting a product that you believe in, I get that. But, instead of simply addressing my questions, I have been met with assumption, obfuscation and derision. I consider that quite unprofessional.

I was curious, but then this product started to remind me of the claims made by high-end stereo cable manufacturers.   Highly subjective claims, badly maintained website, and people not being clear when asked a simple question.  No products for the DRZ400?! you're right, those DRZ owners never change a thing on their bike ....

XR400?!?  You didn't per chance test out the Roost Boost back in the late '80s did you?  That was a really pretty package with a nice finned extrusion case and an epoxy encased resistor that was used to "enhance" the performance of standard "Factory" ignition systems...  I think that the normal non-discounted over the counter price was something like $75 and they sold thousands of them to Honda XR riders on 250s, 350s, 400s and 600s!!  I am sure that in quantities the resistors cost them about 3 cents each!
It atually did work a little bit, the unit plugged into the trigger wiring of the CDI and using the resistor it slightly widened the trigger pulse of the system to give a little bit longer spark at the plug...  But $75 for a resistor?  Outrageous!!

Swiss

Just thought that I would comment here, I agree with Pantaz that I have seen little "proof" of the product.  Is it tough to show?  Maybe, but one or two incidental comments by riders, only one of which might be considered "Professional" at this time is not conclusive proof of much of anything.  MSD has had CDI systems on the market for years and you don't see their system overwhelming the marketplace!  Other CDI aftermarket systems have come and gone with the market..  Often priced relatively high to make a quick profit, sometimes including the software and others requiring an expensive purchase of programming "tools" to make changes in the timing curve etc...  
'Nology brand products is another "Tech" company that has been around for many years now but their coils aren't on every performance bike out there?  
Actually I wish this new company well and hope that their product finds a spot on virtually every racing bike out there in the market.  As long as their product provides the benefits that they are claiming, then they stand a chance of acheiving that end.  
Keep the information coming and figure out a way for your dyno testing to show an increase in power across the powerband, not just at full throttle load runs!

I have no horse in this race as I am satisfied with modern stock ignition performance.

Best wishes to your company and product, guys.  If I may suggest, ignore the skeptics.  If your product is every bit as good as you say it is, you shouldn't get too upset over skeptics/naysayers.  The defensiveness tends to introduce doubt into the minds of possible customers and has done nothing to discredit the skeptics.  If the product has already proven itself to the inventor and investors, who cares if a faceless internet person wants more proof??

  Quick, emotionless answers will serve your company and product best!

If you're sure it works always, all the time, give one to MXA for a review!!  Then post the glowing review here!

sniperpat469 said:

It can take a while to get comfortable with the medium. When I find a forum that interests me, I find it helpful to initially just spend some time "lurking" -- reading threads and getting a feel for how the conversations flow. In the world of internet forums, ThumperTalk is one of the most calm and respectful places I've found.

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That's great to have so many folks actively interested in your product. I hope the testing goes well.

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Passion is good! I'm sure everyone participating here can appreciate that.

Thank you.

Just an update for everyone! I am going too be sending the coil and plug to Jesse @ WilliamsMotoWerx for dyno testing. I will post the results in the near future.

meyer1son said:

Did you happen to get a chance to ship it off to him yet?