TaKaI M-RAIKOU Super Coils!


48 replies to this topic
  • TaKaI

Posted 13 May 2011 - 09:50 AM

#21

A few observations of my own:

1) Manufacturers generally do not care to build products that vastly out live the warranty period. Its not cost effective, and most coils (COP) will last 30K miles no prob.

2) At least with GM, the highest performance models of the LS series motors still use CNP do they not?

3) I never meant to imply heat is the only killer of COP setups. But I do believe that run side by side in the exact same setup (i.e. two YZ450's one with COP and one with CNP) that the COP will fail first, even if it lives 10 years before doing so, just as a comparison.

What is the leading cause of an ignition coil falure?


1) Most manufacturers do want these items "serviceable" so that a tune up feels like a tune up. That is the opposite approach we are taking. What we want is a reliable lifespan and high output which is a bit more difficult to accomplish.

2) Yes, but we must also consider that the LS engine is based off of a 50 year old design using pushrods (btw I'm not knocking the engine, it is well designed) There isn't enough room to use COP so they use CNP (coil near cylinder) which uses one coil per cylinder. Keep in mind their latest V8 designs (Northstar V8's) use COP and all other engines use COP as well. I'm sure the time will come when GM redesigns and goes to direct COP as well since the new Ford engines are outpowering them and have greater fuel mileage. It is, IMHO, inevitable.

3) You are right. The COP setup does have a harsher operating environment but it's always at the cost of performance. Ignition wires also introduce another component that can cause issues or poor running if oxidation, flashover, etc. set in. I'm not knocking either design, as long as they are made to last and withstand the abuse both can function fine.

Forgot to mention, the leading cause of failure is because of poor design of the insulators and placement of parts in relation to other components.
In the end, all aftermarket components are out to do one thing. Find the area where to OE parts could use some refinement and make them better. We did the same thing in the ignition systems where we found issues but corrected several potential issues and made a higher power unit for many platforms.

As can be seen the newest CRF450 already moved to a new remote mount unit as with the YZF450. It's because of all the hampering problems in the past.. but in doing that.. they made new problems which we also fixed.

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • vlad7890

Posted 13 May 2011 - 03:31 PM

#22

Frankly, I find the suggestion that because factory teams change ignition coils after each race (which could also be disputed) we would benefit to upgrade ours to a "better" piece hard to accept.

Are there any hard facts supporting your statement that OEM coils will degrade in performance in 1-2 running hours? I have had a few race bikes, some with hundreds of hours on them, and not once did I have a performance issue due to a degraded coil.

  • TaKaI

Posted 14 May 2011 - 10:33 AM

#23

Frankly, I find the suggestion that because factory teams change ignition coils after each race (which could also be disputed) we would benefit to upgrade ours to a "better" piece hard to accept.

Are there any hard facts supporting your statement that OEM coils will degrade in performance in 1-2 running hours? I have had a few race bikes, some with hundreds of hours on them, and not once did I have a performance issue due to a degraded coil.


My approach is the same as it is for WeaponX. If you do any type of searching we have never told anyone to believe in advertising BS. Infact I endorse the fact that everyone should believe what they think but to turn a blind eye and not look at the overall facts is only what a fool will do. We should all look into all the FACTS and come to a reasonable conclusion ourselves. Also, think about it from my perspective. There is nothing worse then putting up a stupid post with false information that can be discredited.

In any case, what I put up here are hard facts, not propeganda or "advertising" so that people can keep an open mind, inform themselves and come to their own conclusions in the matter. Plain and simple, if you believe that what I say has no merit then I would challenge you to really research the topic and give me some solid data. A blunt personal statement holds no merit to me, but an intelligent question with data will go a long way in a discussion such as this.

Regards

  • TaKaI

Posted 14 May 2011 - 11:20 AM

#24

COP CONVERSIONS
Just to reiterate and elaborate a bit more on COP conversions.

High-voltage circuits always risk degradation at any connection point between two parts. When this happens and there are poor connections high voltage also will escape from its intended circuit especially when it finds an easier path to ground. With coil on plug, there is no high-tension lead between the spark plug and the ignition coil. The system 'compresses' the secondary ignition to the minimum number of components and reduces the distance high-voltage energy must travel. Because of circuit compression overall system power loss is reduced, thus increasing the available power produced by the ignition core across the spark gap. There are many types of power inductors such as toroidal, and axial. In the above figures the energy stored in WeaponX design is transferred more effectively than a remote style mount ignition coils due to the ignition coil style.

SEE ATTACHED IMAGE.

By compressing the ignition coil circuit the stored energy does not need to travel as far and has half the connection points as remote mount designs increasing reliability, power output and efficiency.


CNC PROFILED CONNECTION POINTS
Unless you are really hitting the jumps this may never have been a problem for most but based on the comments we received from professionals a common issue is that many OEM COP units simply pop off the top of a spark plug after hitting a hard landing or come off in a severe impact. This is something, as a racer that is simply NOT acceptable!

Because of this we have created our GRIP ignition coil connector which has many benefits.

First, we have an OEM type fitting that is CNC profiled to correctly GRIP the top of the spark plug.

A common phrase is, you can only pass as much energy as your worst connection allows. In the case of an ignition coil, when using poor fitting interconnects to the spark plug, or the plug wire, a loose connection is a poor connection which has very little surface area able to transfer electrical energy. With a small contact area you increase resistance, high voltage and current losses in the circuit.

TAKAI effectively quadruples the effective surface contact area by CNC profiling our connection points to match the profile of all interconnects making for secure / reliable / low loss contact points. Our CNC profiles accurately match and secure our connections allowing for tighter tolerances and firmly gripped connections over any other alternative on the market reducing premature ignition coil failure and poor electrical conduction.

This connection includes the 2 standard retention connectors (similar to OEM) and a CNC profiled threaded GRIP connection which will allow the coil to screw directly down onto the spark plug ensuring the coil will NOT pop off the spark plug and ensure reliable performance and connectivity for high voltage an performance situations.
See attached images of prototype units vs OEM units.

Discerning members should also be able to notice another critical difference between the two in the diagrams. I will get into it on the next technical post! :thumbsup:

If anyone has any questions or comments, please let me know.

Attached Thumbnails

  • Takai GRIP Connect.jpg
  • OEM Connect.jpg
  • TAKAI COIL vs REMOTE.jpg


  • msiddalingaiah

Posted 15 May 2011 - 02:24 PM

#25

I'm interested in some engineering data.

Can you post the DC resistance of the primary and secondary windings of your coils?
Can you also post the inductance of the primary and secondary windings?

Thanks!

  • TaKaI

Posted 15 May 2011 - 05:41 PM

#26

I'm interested in some engineering data.

Can you post the DC resistance of the primary and secondary windings of your coils?
Can you also post the inductance of the primary and secondary windings?

Thanks!


I can't give out our latest specs due to confidentiality reasons but what I can do is show you a vs with our first released coils vs a Denso unit we benched against.

What I can say is that our new coils have went through 6 revisions so far and progressively got better and better (even though our first revision was superior to the Denso's). The latest TaKaI coils underwent the biggest leap due to our exclusive Focal tech. It seems you are aware of electronics, so I will explain to you before I get into it with everyone else. It basically is a new internal device we use to harness and focus the secondary and primary magnetic fields. As you can probably guess it is partially by using some permeable materials in key locations (which I will add is a PITA with a pencil designed coil), there are also other "tricks" we use but I can't divulge further on why or how we do it. These changes made a rather large difference, especially in leakage inductance / the efficiency of the coils.

Just so you get an idea side by side for TaKaI inductance coils vs Denso.

PRIMARY TAKAI 1.0ohms
PRIMARY DENSO 0.8ohms
SECONDARY TAKAI 14.4k/ohms
SECONDARY DENSO 16.9k/ohms
PRIMARY INDUCTANCE TAKAI 2.5mH
PRIMARY INDUCTANCE DENSO 0.99mH
SECONDARY INDUCTANCE TAKAI 16.2H
SECONDARY INDUCTANCE DENSO 16.9H
LEAKAGE BETWEEN PRIMARY / SECONDARY TAKAI 105mH
LEAKAGE BETWEEN PRIMARY / SECONDARY DENSO 135mH

  • msiddalingaiah

Posted 16 May 2011 - 06:38 AM

#27

What I can say is that our new coils have went through 6 revisions so far and progressively got better and better (even though our first revision was superior to the Denso's). The latest TaKaI coils underwent the biggest leap due to our exclusive Focal tech.


Thanks for the data.

Looking at the numbers, I don't see significant superiority over the Denso coil. It looks like you have quite a bit more wire on the primary and Denso has slightly more wire on the secondary. This suggests the Denso coil has a higher step up ratio, which can be helpful. The leakage inductance is in the same ballpark, so I don't see that as a significant differentiator.

With respect, I found the circuit analysis from your earlier post somewhat dubious, this is why was interested in the engineering data. While I am sold on the concept of COP in general, it is not clear to me what makes your coil superior to Denso. Is there a price advantage?

  • TaKaI

Posted 16 May 2011 - 10:29 AM

#28

Thanks for the data.

Looking at the numbers, I don't see significant superiority over the Denso coil. It looks like you have quite a bit more wire on the primary and Denso has slightly more wire on the secondary. This suggests the Denso coil has a higher step up ratio, which can be helpful. The leakage inductance is in the same ballpark, so I don't see that as a significant differentiator.

With respect, I found the circuit analysis from your earlier post somewhat dubious, this is why was interested in the engineering data. While I am sold on the concept of COP in general, it is not clear to me what makes your coil superior to Denso. Is there a price advantage?


I agree, there is no way we can cram 4 amps out of the secondary, it's impossible, but given a true 25kv source that would be the end result. It seems you are on the ball with electronics but keep in mind, I don't want to loose people that are unfamiliar with electronics and calculating energy into and out of the coil is at least a 4 day lesson that will confuse people more then let them understand. I think you and I can both agree however that the voltage drops can and will happen in a very similar fashion during the spark event and that is the primary reason for the simple analysis which shows easily what I am talking about.

If we want to get into some engineering data. What you should be interested in, and what I thought you would do with the data is calculate total energy output over time from the coils. This is the biggest way most coils are compared.

Let's use a 6.5amp charge on both coils. All other data is available for you to calculate yourself but.

With a 6.5amp charge on the Denso coil in the example the total energy output on the primary would be... 20.91375mJ of total energy output over the event of the spark.

With a 6.5amp charge on the TaKai coil in the example (first gen) the total energy output on the primary would be... 52.8125mJ of total energy output over the event of the spark.

So the TakaI coil has 31.89mJ more energy then it's Denso counterpart, or, over 60% more energy output over the spark event then it's competition.

Also take into consideration that our newest one has greater efficiency, and our first gen is 23% more efficient then the Denso as seen with the leakage in both units. In ignition coils we see that as fairly significant improvement vs the competition. This also means that 23% more energy on our first gen coil will make it to the output over the Denso.

Since we are already starting with more energy it's a win win for overall energy and efficiency vs the competition.

Also, we have a higher KV rating then the Denso. Don't be too fooled by the secondary resistance. It is higher on the Denso because they use a smaller gauge wire on the secondary then we do.

Denso Max Voltage ~19.4KV
First gen TaKai Max Voltage ~20.4KV

*both into a 50PF//1KΩ LOAD

Taking all things into consideration, even our first gen considerably bests the Denso in Efficiency, Energy Output, Voltage Capability and overall design.
I can also say that the newer coils will absolutely destroy the Denso and our First Gen units. They are more then 10KV higher then previous.

The Grip connection is an additional advantage and I will go over some other advantages as well in the coming days. I just want people to throw out questions, like you have, while I make the statements so that we don't get too far off track.

BTW price will not be an advantage.

Let me know if you have any other questions. :smirk:

  • msiddalingaiah

Posted 16 May 2011 - 01:42 PM

#29

So the TakaI coil has 31.89mJ more energy then it's Denso counterpart, or, over 60% more energy output over the spark event then it's competition.


It sounds like your coils are made for Kettering or TCI type ignition systems where energy is stored in the primary of the ignition coil. If so, then I agree the higher inductance primary of your coils is a good thing.

My bike, and probably a lot of bikes today, uses a CDI system where the energy is stored in a capacitor charged to 200 Volts or more. In this case, high primary inductance is not such a good thing.

For comparison, the primary inductance of my stock coil is 59 µH, which is not even in the same ballpark as either the Denso or your coils. I suspect this is not a fair comparison as (I am guessing) yours are not designed for CDI. If so, I doubt your coils will work very well with a CDI.

I could be wrong, I'm just basing this on the data provided.

  • TaKaI

Posted 16 May 2011 - 02:48 PM

#30

It sounds like your coils are made for Kettering or TCI type ignition systems where energy is stored in the primary of the ignition coil. If so, then I agree the higher inductance primary of your coils is a good thing.

My bike, and probably a lot of bikes today, uses a CDI system where the energy is stored in a capacitor charged to 200 Volts or more. In this case, high primary inductance is not such a good thing.

For comparison, the primary inductance of my stock coil is 59 µH, which is not even in the same ballpark as either the Denso or your coils. I suspect this is not a fair comparison as (I am guessing) yours are not designed for CDI. If so, I doubt your coils will work very well with a CDI.

I could be wrong, I'm just basing this on the data provided.


To anybody else reading this, sorry if it is over our heads. I will explain much of the technical aspects here so that it is understandable and in greater detail as this thread progresses.

msiddalingaiah
We have dedicated CDI and Inductive coils per application. What I showed you is an Inductive Takai vs Common Inductive Denso scenario common on many bikes.

Our CDI coils will work as intended, no problems. Also, yes, if we are talking CDI then the primary purpose of the coil is to step up the input energy and not usually store energy. One of the primary differences between the two then becomes leakage energy of the coil.

As you can guess, it plays a vital part in telling the story of efficiently transferring the primary magnetic field to the secondary windings. (which is what we want in a CDI coil) Typically low resistance on the primary is desired purely because it becomes a more effective load for the capacitor in a CDI, however, this isn't always the case when dealing with slightly higher ESR capacitors. In that case you may be better off being able to partially charge and hold some energy before firing off the plug.

For example... if the CDI has a low output voltage then it will be when the coil field collapses that we will get spark. Then it may be wise to store some energy first. Also, if this is the case, when the ESR of the cap is high and discharges for 200-400uS (which is common) then would you rather have the energy lost due to saturation and fire the coil when the field collapses or be able to hold 400uS of energy that was discharged and then fire when the field collapses?

In some cases we find that holding that energy, rather then stepping it up is what we would like to do. We noticed in some CDI's that many companies use high ESR capacitors in their applications. This is due to size considerations, since low ESR capacitors ARE BIG and is what is desired for instantaneous discharge. For example, a cap we are looking at for a future project is the same size as most CDI's.

As indicated in the previous posts, we are able to be much more efficient then the Denso units so that is a primary consideration when choosing a CDI coil. The separate coil on plug, which I assume you are talking about is usually a CDI coil, but not always. When I have a chance I will put one on a bench and measure it's efficiency so you have an idea between the 3.

So you are aware, at 59uH the effective rating of your coil is 12.46375mJ total energy capacity. Just want to add that most OEMs are wising up and noticing there are some losses with those units. You can see a change that has been made as of this year in regards to the sizing of the coils on the 450 YZF and CRF. They are better but in our opinion, still have flaws of their own.

  • msiddalingaiah

Posted 16 May 2011 - 03:34 PM

#31

We have dedicated CDI and Inductive coils per application. What I showed you is an Inductive Takai vs Common Inductive Denso scenario common on many bikes.


OK, can you post engineering data for your CDI coils?

So you are aware, at 59uH the effective rating of your coil is 12.46375mJ total energy capacity.


I have no idea where you are getting that number and at this point, I'm really not interested. I don't want to sound dismissive, but this is starting to sound like an audiophile forum. Given engineering data, I can figure out the rest on my own.

As you say, this is really getting into the weeds. My stock coil has worked very well for me so far. I would be happy to find a COP coil with similar characteristics that will work with my stock CDI at a reasonable price. If you say your coils don't enjoy any price advantage, I am probably not in your target market.

Thanks and good luck!

  • TaKaI

Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:01 PM

#32

OK, can you post engineering data for your CDI coils?

I have no idea where you are getting that number and at this point, I'm really not interested. I don't want to sound dismissive, but this is starting to sound like an audiophile forum. Given engineering data, I can figure out the rest on my own.

As you say, this is really getting into the weeds. My stock coil has worked very well for me so far. I would be happy to find a COP coil with similar characteristics that will work with my stock CDI at a reasonable price. If you say your coils don't enjoy any price advantage, I am probably not in your target market.

Thanks and good luck!


Yes, and my R1's stock cams and exhaust also worked just fine but that isn't what is on my bike. If you want stock, then it's stock you get. All aftermarket parts are meant to do one thing. Improve the performance of the stock parts. You haven't even tried and passed judgement. Our Super coils are no exception to the rule.

Also, I'm really not trying to sound like an ass but keep in mind that your the one that questioned me about specifics, dragged this "into the weeds" as you said, and I gave the answers you asked for point blank. Also, the equation is basic engineering.

Also, and please don't take this personally as it is not intended to be, but if you were not interested at "no price break" that is where we should have parted ways in our discussion. It's not because I don't want to, but because I would really like to speak and explain more to people who don't, or do, have the background and are interested in the product and want to find out more.

Sorry you are not interested.. I will move on and thank you for the good luck.

  • TaKaI

Posted 16 May 2011 - 04:07 PM

#33

ONTO SOME OTHER FEATURES OF THE TAKAI SUPER COILS.

MATERIAL SELECTION AND MATERIAL CROSS SECTIONAL AREA OF OUR GRIP CONNECT
Put simply, the larger cross section of material present, the more current carrying capability and higher voltage the material can conduct.

The connection to the spark plug is where all stored ignition coil energy is released. TaKaI specifies and uses thick cross sections of the material that connect directly to the spark plug. (THE LARGER THE CROSS SECTION OF MATERIAL = MORE EFFICIENCY, MORE CURRENT CARRYING CAPABILITY) The TaKaI proprietary blend of Copper and Zinc metals is optimized to create a brass material that conducts over 35 times more effectively than the average OEM type stainless connectors!

So what we do offer over OEM designs is exceptional resistance to corrosion but still offers excellent electrical conduction.

Below is a chart that shows the electrical conductivity of our connectors vs the competitions. Here people can distinctively see the superiority of brass as a conductive connector over the standard stainless connection point.

Electrical Conductivity of Metals (Higher number = better conduction)

Copper 100 (70% TAKAI)
Zinc 28.2 (30%TAKAI)
Nickel 12-16 (STAINLESS)
Carbon Steel 3-15 (STAINLESS)
Vanadium 6.6 (STAINLESS)


Copper is one of the best electrical conductors and our ignition coil uses it in spades internally and externally vs the stainless and nickle based connections of many common ignition coils. Our blend of selected materials allows us to improve performance whenever possible. With our proprietary material selection, higher cross sectional area of material, superior material selection TaKaI has produced connections that resist corrosion and transfer electricity exceptionally well in any engine environment.

If anybody has any questions or comments please feel free to ask.

  • Pr1malR8gw

Posted 16 May 2011 - 06:56 PM

#34

Not to sound like a "begger" How ever you came to this board to showcase your product yet when someone makes an offer to do a test run you claim you have big names running it yet no names mentioned..

So, To me why even come here.. Just let your name get out by your current testers?

I think if you want to come in here why not use us as your testers. I have no problem using your stuff seeing how it runs and reporting back. If and when you're ready to go public sell the product to me for a discounted rate or let me ship it back if I feel it's not worth what you ask for it..

Sometimes the little people will do your buisness better then paying the big names to use your product..

So to that. Let me know.

  • redirt

Posted 16 May 2011 - 08:17 PM

#35

I agree, there's hardly anything for sale on the website. Promote here = cheap stuff for people who want to try out and then promote your product thru word of mouth. in the case of a "viral" web product, where's the product?

  • TaKaI

Posted 17 May 2011 - 07:11 AM

#36

I will be frank and honest.

FIRSTLY

Fair enough but there will still be some requirements.

A) Who are the takers that want a sample on the cheap?

:smirk: Let me know
1 what you ride
2 how long you have been riding
3 where you ride
4 do you ride professionally

C)Let me know what type of spark plug you run and the NGK cross reference of that plug.

D)I will not send product to a company or a person affiliated with a company, so if you are, please do not make a request. If you are aware of an individual who is affiliated with a company that makes a request for our product please inform me as I will blacklist the company from selling or being able to purchase our product. This is primarily due to conflicting interests (example : companies that promote NGK spark plugs and may smear our name due to what they promote or companies promoting the products they are affiliated with, iKAt etc etc) We need a civil / unbiased individual without connection to the industry to do the testing.

SECONDLY

Also Just a take from my point of view and I hope that we can all be civil here because I want to explain my worries about this.

We have advertised on many other forums, and have ALWAYS offered free independent dynos and product for forum members. Several independant dynos with our product were done and many claimed B.S. so it made no difference in sales or word of mouth. Hence why there will now be a price of admission. In every case we sent free product and the product was clearly tested by an indepentant forum member that had several thousand posts it made no difference in the opinion of the same naysayers that wanted independent tests.

We have had this experience several times and to be honest, there is always the stick in the mud that regardless of dynos, independant tests, information etc always has their own agenda whether it's because they are miserable, want to make drama, or are just looking for an outlet to try and express themselves negatively. We are professionals and that behavior isn't tolerated, needed or wanted. As adults there is a right way, and wrong way to express ourselves and I an earnest in saying that I would really appreciate a tester that can be professional with us. As they say, what goes around comes around.

I could also say the same thing, give us a shot and try our product and spread the information about it but I am willing to do what is listed above. Do some research, our parent company, WeaponX, is regarded as the best supplier of aftermarket performance ignition components from several groups of interest. All by word of mouth and all who paid for the product before letting others know. Below is a link to some of those dynos.

http://www.weaponxpe...dyno_charts.htm

If you do some searching they are all posted online by our independent testers.

  • TaKaI

Posted 17 May 2011 - 08:52 AM

#37

I agree, there's hardly anything for sale on the website.


If you mean the catalogue it is because we aren't sure if we are going to break down the items per manufacturer (Kawasaki, Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, etc) or by catagory (coils, ignition boxes, spark plugs). It gets to be a pain because many items cross platforms. That and because it will be one more week until the coils will be available and that is when the catalogue will go live.
:smirk:

  • MSD Mike

Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:11 AM

#38

Working for an ignition manufacturer I can tell you that making the "stick Coils" more powerful is quite a challenge. There is simply not a lot of room for copper and iron, two key ingredients for making spark power from a coil. Not having tested these coils I am in no position to offer an opinion on their performance but I will say if you have managed to squeeze some more energy and durability out of this style coil its a good thing. The oem's are going to this style of coil primarily for packaging reasons and to eliminate the maintenance associated with a plug wire, not because they provide more energy. While I can see reduced potential for problems by eliminating the coil wire and its required connection points I haven’t found remote mounted coils to be particularly troublesome on newer bikes. In fact, knock on wood, the only ignition related problem I ever had on a bike without points was the Motoplat on my old KTM 495, it failed regularly. For me I am most interested in the additional energy because I don’t feel there are any real reliability problems on most new dirt bikes. I have no idea about Moto GP or other road race applications.
Regarding performance gains with the extra energy I believe you will find results all over the map. In our testing at MSD on both automotive and motorcycle applications we have found more spark energy helps some time and not others. There are many variables such as piston and head design, compression ratio and what kind of fuel you are using. Generally, the more you have done to the engine the more potential there is for an improvement with spark energy increase. We have added more powerful ignitions to some bikes and seen absolutely nothing in return. Another example would be a built flat track bike (YZ450) with very high compression ratio. The compression was high enough that at peak cylinder pressure the stock ignition would not run without missing. Reducing plug gap helped but didn’t solve the problem. We added a more powerful ignition (with the stock coil actually) and the builder was able to run the compression ratio he desired with no missing. You simply don’t know until it’s tested in the application you’re interested in. Sometimes more spark doesn’t give any power gain but may help with better throttle response and a bike that is less sensitive to incorrect jetting. In my experience, simply changing a coil without using a more powerful amplifier nets fairly small but useful gains in spark energy.
Anyway, I am interested in independent results that relate to our dirt bike applications.

I don’t really blame him for not sharing too many technical details; you never really know who is watching:)

PS Regarding the LS application that an earlier post mentioned, the factory LS coils are CNP and not COP because the LS coils actually each have an amplifier built into the coils and are triggered with a low voltage signal from the ECU. Because they have electronics built in they don’t lend themselves to “Stick coil” type packaging The LS motors spark plug configuration is also kind similar to and old school small block in that they are just screwed in the side of the head and don’t really have room/support required by the stick coil setup.


Thanks
MSD Mike

  • vlad7890

Posted 17 May 2011 - 09:34 AM

#39

Yes, and my R1's stock cams and exhaust also worked just fine but that isn't what is on my bike. If you want stock, then it's stock you get. All aftermarket parts are meant to do one thing. Improve the performance of the stock parts.


Why don't we look at it from another angle which should make it easy for anyone to understand. What kind of horsepower gain or changes to the torque curve can I expect with a 2011 CRF450R equipped with your coil? Can you post comparison dyno charts for the bikes you have tested?

  • TaKaI

Posted 17 May 2011 - 01:09 PM

#40

Not having tested these coils I am in no position to offer an opinion on their performance but I will say if you have managed to squeeze some more energy and durability out of this style coil its a good thing. The oem's are going to this style of coil primarily for packaging reasons and to eliminate the maintenance associated with a plug wire, not because they provide more energy. While I can see reduced potential for problems by eliminating the coil wire and its required connection points I haven’t found remote mounted coils to be particularly troublesome on newer bikes. ....


Mike, nice to meet you, and yes we never do know who is watching. :smirk: There are several secrets that will probably stay that way and I am sure vice versa. Maybe one day things will change and a collaborative effort will be made but until then it's the usual.

I hear where you are coming from and I'm not sure about MSD but for us, it has never been all about making MASSIVE POWER COILS! Because we keep in mind some simple guidelines when designing.

1) A higher power coil requires more energy input
2) More energy input creates more engine demand
3) More engine demand means lost performance
4) Efficiency, efficiency, efficiency!

So while we design with added performance enhancements it's usually by focusing on increased overall efficiency that nets us increased performance.
I am fairly confident our pencil design is one of, if not the best, on the market and better then a majority of coil near plug units. For the size, I would be hard pressed to find something more potent.

In regards to external coil near plug units, I agree, partially. If you are talking the GM LS2/3/4 etc CNP (coil near plug, with internal igniter) coils, well then those are fairly high powered, but also can draw over 12amps of energy per coil. In a bike it's just not a reasonable idea to use it.

a) because of increased engine load to charge it which will cause loss of hp
:prof: possible stator failure due to excessive energy demands

In the same breath I am 110% sure that you and I can agree that just using a higher power coil will create more of a problem in these applications then make any power. Even if the bike could supply enough power to the coil a typical GM LS style coil would fall flat on it's face after 6000rpm due to the amount of time required to charge them properly. Off the top of my head recommended charge time for those is 3.5mS. I believe 6000rpm is the magic number where the piston hits TDC / TDC quicker then 3.5mS which means the coil will not have full charge when it fires after that which is not good. Also, most bikes won't supply that kind of energy to the coil to start with so using that coil would be a lose lose situation.

Like I said above, our key is being able to harness the existing power that is leaving the ignition as efficiently as possible and supplying an effective high energy spark. Also, if required, to be able to suppliment that ignition power and not overdrive the coil. As shown in our other post even our first gen unit was 23% more efficient then our competitor units all while having a higher energy capacity which is a fairly big leap.

As far as the bike coils go I would assume you haven't done any type of testing on the average remote coilpack associated with the MX and ATV bikes? We have quite a few here and to put it bluntly, they suck, they really suck (sorry for the harsh words to anybody with those coils, I'm a fairly blunt person). Also, they don't manage to pack any more iron then ours do and ours have some alternative benefits. For example

In those designs the magnetic field produced is simply horrific(inefficient)! I will explain soon the differences to those interested soon. :smirk:

What kind of horsepower gain or changes to the torque curve can I expect with a 2011 CRF450R equipped with your coil?


We haven't dyno'd that application quite yet even though there is a professional rider with the coil on their 2011 CRF450R. I will do my best to provide some dynos, problem is he is out of state.




 
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