its not like i wasnt warned


25 replies to this topic
  • humpness

Posted April 30, 2011 - 03:59 PM

#1

I got back from my first trip to the dunes and during the oil change process i found sand (a lot) all over the oil filter. there was so much sand in the filter cover. i am losing my mind. the oil is black as hell and I dont know how to attack this.

I know i need to flush this out but I dont know any thing about tearing this thing apart. I think for starters I will do lots of oil changes tomorrow and analyze its progress.

I had about 8hrs at the dunes with that oil change. its not like i wasnt warned. i knew all about the breather hose reroute etc. I wrecked a lot in the sand and the bike was constantly buried. oh and the air filter is clean.

new bike for sale?

  • brentn

Posted April 30, 2011 - 05:15 PM

#2

I'd be worried about possible bearing issues, good news is that the filter filters oil to the head as far as I know, so the cam bearings and journals should be ok. If I'm wrong I'm sure that grey will be prompt to correct me.

I would flush it just with your regular engine oil maybe a couple times at the most. Get the bike up to operating temp before you drain to get the crap suspended if possible. Then drain and do it once more for piece of mind, that's really all you can do unless you want to do a teardown.

  • humpness

Posted April 30, 2011 - 05:39 PM

#3

should i just warm it with idle? no revs?

if it came in through the breather hose wouldnt it dump right on the head?

I am pretty sure it didnt come in through the air boot. i had sand on the filter skin only. the inside looked clean.

i dug the bike down in the sand to get off and walk around couple times. killed the bike a few times in turns where i was next to laying it down. i piled up repeatedly at low speed and a few jumps. im not going to lie it was fun!

i cant even put the lower filter bolt on because of so much sand. ill get some more break cleaner and spray it out.

will i ever get close to flushing it all out or?

worried and embarrassed. thanks

  • brentn

Posted April 30, 2011 - 05:53 PM

#4

The proper way to do it is to take the cases apart and start cleaning the bearings and such with kerosene, diesel etc and get all the oil/sand out if there is any left. You would also be checking for bearing play, or wear on the races etc.

I would think that most of it would be collected in the filter, riding the bike would wash the sand out of the parts and eventually get picked up by the oil pickup line at some point since the sand got in there. Question is if there is any damage to the bearings while the sand was in there?

If I were you I would get a new filter and pop it in there for the flush (forgot to mention that in the previous post) and put in the correct amount of oil and warm to operating temp, then drain. Do it twice like I said, for piece of mind, and then check your filter.
Use compressed air and carb cleaner and try and get the sand out of the lower filter bolt cavity, do not screw in the bolt with sand in there cause it'll probably strip.
The sand got in through the breather, a common problem for some people. Theory is that it's long enough to not allow sand and crap up there, but in practice it does. Some people have said that it is possible for dirt to get up in the tube and into the engine when submerged and the bike is started.

Really flushing it is about all you can do, and watch to see if you notice any louder than normal sounds coming from the engine, or burning oil etc. Just watch it carefully for your next couple of rides and be observant of how the engine is behaving and sounding. Like I mentioned damage could have been done, but who knows until you take it apart. As sensitive as these engines are to abuse, they are also equally resilient in some instances.

Other people will most likely reply and give their two cents, hopefully they will have some better tips/info.
Don't be embarrassed you were riding the bike like it was meant to be riding, how in the hell could you know it was sucking up sand when buried?

  • brentn

Posted April 30, 2011 - 05:55 PM

#5

Since this has already happened, and assuming that your bike is ok in the end, you might want to consider re-routing the breather tube to a crank case ventilation filter. You'll have to make sure that filter is cleaned just as regular as your air filter, it's more work, but this won't happen again.
I have a thread on how I did it for my bike, and there are many more if you search.

  • humpness

Posted April 30, 2011 - 05:58 PM

#6

thanks brentn ill give it a shot.

  • Octanee

Posted April 30, 2011 - 09:41 PM

#7

your cheapest and safest way to go about it, and the way thats going to suck, is tear it apart, you cant get all the sand out, and flushing it will not do, it only takes 1 grain of sand to scratch the crap out of your cylinder and pistons, F up your bearings you name it, basically youd be throwing the engine away and buying a whole new one..... or it will get VERY costly, be smart, tear that engine apart and clean it right on out, crack the case open and give it a nice clean,

and while your at it, replace your piston and rings, probably would not hurt to change valve seals too?, check your crank, might be smart to throw in a different one?,

  • YamahaDoc

Posted April 30, 2011 - 09:55 PM

#8

I ride in the sand almost exclusively and have never had a problem with my bike (or any of my friends bikes) sucking sand through the breather... I see it posted on here all the time though... You guys must be doing some weird crap. :thumbsup:

  • humpness

Posted April 30, 2011 - 10:01 PM

#9

ya weird huh. glad its working out for you. thank you for sharing.

  • humpness

Posted April 30, 2011 - 10:06 PM

#10

your cheapest and safest way to go about it, and the way thats going to suck, is tear it apart, you cant get all the sand out, and flushing it will not do, it only takes 1 grain of sand to scratch the crap out of your cylinder and pistons, F up your bearings you name it, basically youd be throwing the engine away and buying a whole new one..... or it will get VERY costly, be smart, tear that engine apart and clean it right on out, crack the case open and give it a nice clean,

and while your at it, replace your piston and rings, probably would not hurt to change valve seals too?, check your crank, might be smart to throw in a different one?,


im kind of leaning towards this right now. no clue of the level of chore or amount of time for that. guess ill study the manual a bit more.

once its completely apart maybe ill make a grocery list.

thanks

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  • Octanee

Posted April 30, 2011 - 10:16 PM

#11

yeah, i'd say while shes apart you may as well probably throw in a new crank and pistons, find great prices for some cranks online, my bike i threw in a used one, so far i got like 3 summers on that of lots of km's, paid like 100 bucks for the crank, great deal there, and piston is a wiseco, i re did my valve seals, made a tool to compress the springs and stuff so i could take my valves out, but yeah.... i mean its not a bad idea, and its going to cost you ALOT more if you run that bike, and i can garantee alot of that sand is going to stay in your engine even if you run oil through it,

  • crf450319

Posted May 01, 2011 - 09:00 AM

#12

find great prices for some cranks online, my bike i threw in a used one, so far i got like 3 summers on that of lots of km's, paid like 100 bucks for the crank, great deal there


While we're talking about reducing the risk of experiencing a catastrophic engine failure, the very last thing I would do is bet my engines reliability on a used crank. IMO you're no better or worse risk wise to run the bike after flushing it, vs. buying a used crank.

Just my $0.02, good luck either way.

  • sledtrash

Posted May 01, 2011 - 09:51 AM

#13

yeah, i'd say while shes apart you may as well probably throw in a new crank and pistons, find great prices for some cranks online, my bike i threw in a used one, so far i got like 3 summers on that of lots of km's, paid like 100 bucks for the crank, great deal there, and piston is a wiseco, i re did my valve seals, made a tool to compress the springs and stuff so i could take my valves out, but yeah.... i mean its not a bad idea, and its going to cost you ALOT more if you run that bike, and i can garantee alot of that sand is going to stay in your engine even if you run oil through it,


Back to brent's post yes the proper way it to tear it apart. And if you tear it apart I'd for sure buy a new top end rebuild kit (ie piston valve seals so on...)

But for everything else go by the manual and check the tolerances make sure that they are within spec and if they are reuse them. Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no sense in replacing something that is well within the tolerances.

I agree with Brent while it's not working put the breather into the airbox with a filter on the end, I bought one from autozone for 9 bucks looks like a little k&n filter, better safe than sorry, and it doesn't hurt anything either.

I'd also do the oil filter drain plug mod while I was at it. There is a link in the stickies for it. That'll keep any gunk out of your lower drain bolt plug. You'll never have to worry about messing up the threads in the drain plug if you do. I've heard of way too many guys having to deal with this.

Good luck man and the tear down isn't too hard. Just read the manual like it was a bible!!! (and thumpertalk)

  • salemonkey

Posted May 02, 2011 - 03:39 AM

#14

While we're talking about reducing the risk of experiencing a catastrophic engine failure, the very last thing I would do is bet my engines reliability on a used crank. IMO you're no better or worse risk wise to run the bike after flushing it, vs. buying a used crank.

Just my $0.02, good luck either way.


the correct way is to send your crank off to get inspected/rebuilt. i just got my crank back for my 02 yz 426 and looks great. he installs and trues a new rod, rod bearing, and rod pin on your old crankshaft after he checks it to see if its within spec. he put a pro-x rod kit on mine that he provides. cost me 200$ and he ships it back well packaged. personally i would try to flush it out if it still runs good. not saying your motor will last long but unless you want to spend a good 600+ on new bearings, crank rebuild, piston, gaskets, misc parts right now then id try and get the sand out and see how it runs. if you feel like you succesfully got rid of the sand i would ride it for the time being till you gather up the money to rebuild your bike right. or till it fails/siezes.

my crank siezed on me early this month out at the dunes but oddly it was more or less its time rather then having sand jammed in it. could of easily got shavings in the bearing though sense i find those in my oil filter. was always curious how much shavings is normal.

that and i bought the bike used last year. so for the 8 years prior to me owning it who knows what type of maintenance was done to it.

i also plan on rerouting my breather set up to make it unable to suck up sand or dirt. (even though i havent had problems) it would suck to have a engine problem because of your breather tube.

  • crf450319

Posted May 02, 2011 - 07:52 AM

#15

By "used" I'd meant looking on E-bay and buying a used one there, not having your own sent off for inspection/repair.

A new OEM Yamaha crank is $318.56, which includes the connecting rod/pin/bearing (comes assembled as a complete unit). So depending on what a guy would rather do, if we're talking about a repaired crank or a new one you have some options.

  • grayracer513

Posted May 02, 2011 - 08:38 AM

#16

A new OEM Yamaha crank is $318.56, which includes the connecting rod/pin/bearing (comes assembled as a complete unit).

Which means that if you take that $200 labor for the crank work and it turns out you need $160 worth of rod, bearing and crank pin, or even just the $90 worth of bearing and pin, you'll have at least $290 to $360 in the deal, and you'll have the same old crank sprocket.

See his point?

  • ben williams

Posted May 02, 2011 - 08:49 AM

#17

A tear down is the correct way to go. But if you decide to roll the dice, I would drain the old oil, then fill it up with diesel, all the way, not just the correct amount, do not start just shake it around real good, then drain into a clean pan and see what comes out.

  • salemonkey

Posted May 03, 2011 - 04:06 AM

#18

Which means that if you take that $200 labor for the crank work and it turns out you need $160 worth of rod, bearing and crank pin, or even just the $90 worth of bearing and pin, you'll have at least $290 to $360 in the deal, and you'll have the same old crank sprocket.

See his point?


200$ was for rod kit included if your talking to me. labor/kit/inspection/shiping. if hes going used i would do that. if your going new. you can sometimes fine a deal but 318 from yamaha seems low. i thought when i checked it was around 380$. you should post where you get it for 318. but grey is right about the old crank sprocket for timing chain. mine was just fine along with my chain. but something to check before thinking of using the old one. i know that just one half of the crank was 200 plus.

  • SEOINAGE

Posted May 03, 2011 - 07:29 AM

#19

So what's the consensus on prevention. Don't ever ride in sand without making modification? I have a trip next week, would be a hustle to fit this project in before then, but is it really required?

  • sledtrash

Posted May 03, 2011 - 08:31 AM

#20

So what's the consensus on prevention. Don't ever ride in sand without making modification? I have a trip next week, would be a hustle to fit this project in before then, but is it really required?


A lot of people never have a problem... but others do, I did it just to be safe. and no you could do it in like 2-4 hrs.

several ways of doing it. all fairly simple and cheap. a couple of fitting's and a $1 worth of hose and a filter all less than $14 or so.

http://www.thumperta....51#post4054651

http://www.thumperta....d.php?t=706602

http://www.thumperta....73#post4956573

I think it's worth it to do rather than chancing a rebuild.





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