81 replies to this topic

[slaydirt TT Gold Member]

50GRIT said:

What gear are you riding in? I just came off the Desert Assasins "Rip to the Tip" and I can tell you that riding the uphill rocky sections was my weak spot. After getting to spend some time riding and talking with Johnny Campbell and some other epic riders he really turned it around for me. Clicking up a gear higher than I think I need to be in clamping the bike with my legs (at the right times) and linear clutch work turned a miserable rocky section into something I look forward to now. Momentum and lack of wheel spin were key to crawling up these gnarly hills in the Baja. Where in AZ are you riding?

i live in sierra vista and riding some trails in and around montezumas pass...my best attempts at the hill have been in second gear,my last and worst shot at it was in first...im gonna reread some of 2plys advice,but wont have a chance to ride there for a little while now because its currently burning...as in forest fire lol..well not really lol,it sucks that one of my riding spots is on fire

[2PLY Get Help Now]

Earlier when we were discussing foot position, arches versus balls of the feet, I forgot to mention that as you learn to lay the bike over more in the slower tight turns as in switch-backs, even if you don't need the extra leg suspension, it's a good thing to slide at least your inside foot back on the peg to avoid a ground strike.  Quite often in this type of tight turn, my foot pegs even drag on the ground or catch on clumps of grass, rocks or other stuff that is not a threat to your tires but are definitely a threat to your toes.

And in a few cases, I sometimes even lift my inside foot completely off the peg and as high as a foot or more above as I stand entirely on the outside peg....    which by the extreme lean of the bike is really becoming almost a "center" peg if you look from behind.

[NLS1 TT Newbie]

2PLY said:

Good to hear!  There is a lot more once you get the fundamentals down pat, but none of the advanced stuff will work until you have this one basic element learned well enough that you don't even have to think about it. I have found that if you can master even just this one principle, you can outperform 95% of the other riders out there.

Keep in mind that it's not a simple task...  even after 35 years, I'm STILL trying to master it.  Even last weekend on my first ride after shoulder surgery last Autumn, there they were!!!  Bad habits!!  Pulling on the bars for turns, stiff knees causing me to fall back when hitting the gas and all of the stuff I preach about  

But for those that are having some trouble, getting tired and having trouble bouncing around in the rough stuff, I can't stress enough how valuable a structured video review of your riding can be.  So many times when I find a rider that says to me that it's not working for him and they swear they are doing it correctly, a little video shows it all...     very humbling and very helpful..   Just find that spot that gives you trouble and set up a little video camera where you can see yourself from the side or 45 degree angle, or have a friend shoot from a key spot and if your camera allows like my little Canon ELF does, watch the video back right there in super slow motion.   On my camera, I just hit the pause button and then the fast forward while in pause to activate slow motion replay.

And for those that think this is only for slow riding, I've heard more than one super fast guy say that in order to learn how to go fast, you first have to master going slow.  

Thanks 2-ply!  I wish I had a camera this last time I rode with a buddy of mine, next time.  

So I used the info about foot placement and weight shifting, and it worked awesome for the first couple hours, what a difference.  It turned out to be the gnarliest tightest single track I have ever ridden yet.  I had no idea we even had stuff like that in MN!  While making a conscious effort to shift weight and be loose, my buddy couldn't keep up which is a nice change!  Although once I was tired and we thought we might not make it out before dark, my form went to crap:bonk:  but until I got tired I was riding better than I ever have!  

How far should I rotate my bars forward? I have the highest non mini bike bars I could find without a bar riser.  After 5 or 6 hours I was so tired I could hardly stand on the pegs which made the super steep, muddy rutted hills a slow process.  Would the bar rotation help with not getting so fatigued, or is it simply a case of get in better shape?  We sure were wishing for trials bikes the other day and now it's all I can think about.  I know I would have had a lot more fun on a trials bike or horse!   I am gonna re-read everything again, it was so helpful the other day.  Thanks again, Dan

[FRECNDY TT Silver Member]

Got out to El Mirage this weekend, thought I'd update on how it went. Since the last time out, I've added Rox risers, moving the RC High bars as much pure forward as I could work out. I added a Steahly 11-oz. flywheel weight.

Between those two changes, everything was working way, way better. No whiskey throttle, everything just felt a lot more natural. Could sit or stand, no issues with balance. With the FWW, the YZ250 just tractored up the "big" hill climbs, no problem, minimal clutching. I actually felt like I was getting lazy with the clutch, but the bike didn't seem to mind.

One time, when climbing, I really felt it come together, where my weight was entirely balanced on the pegs and I was just riding an elevator to the top. Happened on a steeper climb than most of what we did, and I think that was what made the geometry/physics come together. Need to get to that place a lot more. It was cool.

Interesting comparison to my buddies and their quads in different kinds of terrain. Before I got the bike, I rode both of the quads I was following quite a bit, so I have a good feel for what they're like.

In a sand wash, a quad is at home, like a jet ski on water. It has good floatation, the wider tires and track minimize the effects of ruts on lateral movement, and the soft surface helps make up for its lack of suspension travel. Fun and easy. On a bike, the sandy washes felt sketchy. The front tire's tendency to follow the ruts makes things a little squirrely. I definitely found it best to be in a higher gear, on the gas, and carrying more speed. The risk is that I was going fast enough for crashing to really, really suck, and I had to be super-vigilant to the surface. Slowing down would load the front tire and make it more sensitive to the ruts, so if something came along that required scrubbing some speed, it got pretty interesting. I guess I can see why people who ride the dunes tend to end up with steering dampers. I did get a bit of a feel for it, but overall, felt like in the sand washes, I was mostly just trying not to have something bad happen. Was always way lagging the quads. Will get better.

However, on dirt, the bike was a lot better, and I was only hanging back in order to be able to look farther up the trail at what I was about to go over and plan my lines better. I found myself creeping right up on the quads without even really trying. I began to get comfortable, and really enjoyed just picking one line through the rougher spots, rather than having to figure out how to get the whole quad down the trail.

The bike is working for me, and I'm really happy with its performance overall. I could have done most of what I did with less bike, like a 250 4t or even a CRF230F, but having a 250 2t didn't seem to be hurting anything. I went everywhere I wanted to go, as fast as I wanted to go, without any problems stalling or controlling it. It's got plenty of sauce so I have something to "grow into", and it's cheap.

I feel like I got to the point where I will be able to go riding with people who aren't super-close friends, and not have anyone be like, "Dude, the new guy sucks, don't bring him again." That was my main goal, as I have turned up a lot of friends who have bikes and would go with me, but who have been riding for a long time.

+1 for the Pro Moto Billet kick stand. No trees to lean the bike against in the desert. Really nice piece.

I got an Omega neck brace, too. It fit just fine with my Fox Airframe and trail pack, and I "didn't even know I had it on" most of the time.

We almost ran over about a 3-foot rattler, but didn't hurt him. I actually saw my first desert tortoise in 14 years of going to the desert, about four feet off the side of the trail in some bushes. A good trip.

[2PLY Get Help Now]

NLS1 said:

Thanks 2-ply!  ....

How far should I rotate my bars forward? ... Dan

Dan,

I forgot what bike you have so you might have to experiment.  If you have a Trials Bike, we start with the riser section of the bars vertical to forward up to 20 degrees with the levers about 10 to 15 degrees down from horizontal.

In the photo below, I'm not sure if the camera angle is affecting the proper view, but this is an example of as far back as we would go for general trail riding and for Novice riders. As the objects get larger, the hills steeper and the rider better, we would rotate the bars 5 to 15 degrees forward of this position and then adjust the levers again to the 10 to 15 degrees down position.

If you find you are having trouble keeping a finger or two resting on the levers (covering the levers), it's a sign that you are holding on too tight. A relaxed grip will feel comfortable with the fingers covering the levers and it actually makes it easier to do without the high bar risers that new riders feel are necessary.  A tight-fisted grip pulls your upper body into the bars.  A loose or relaxed grip with fingers covering the levers gives you a little more room.

If you feel like the bars are getting ahead of you on acceleration or on the climbs, it's a sign that your knees have not adjusted to allow your feet to rotate to the front of the pegs.  If you sink the knees forward on acceleration and hills, you'll find the bars will be very comfortable at or forward of the position in the photo since your waist moves closer to the bars if your feet and knees are working correctly. Forgetting to adjust the boot position with the knees will leave you trying to catch up with the bike..   And of course, as we get tired, that seems to be the first thing to fall apart...  you'll probably feel it in your hands before you realize it's a foot problem.

[NLS1 TT Newbie]

2PLY said:

Dan,

I forgot what bike you have so you might have to experiment.  If you have a Trials Bike, we start with the riser section of the bars vertical to forward up to 20 degrees with the levers about 10 to 15 degrees down from horizontal.

If you find you are having trouble keeping a finger or two resting on the levers (covering the levers), it's a sign that you are holding on too tight. A relaxed grip will feel comfortable with the fingers covering the levers and it actually makes it easier to do without the high bar risers that new riders feel are necessary.  A tight-fisted grip pulls your upper body into the bars.  A loose or relaxed grip with fingers covering the levers gives you a little more room.

If you feel like the bars are getting ahead of you on acceleration or on the climbs, it's a sign that your knees have not adjusted to allow your feet to rotate to the front of the pegs.  If you sink the knees forward on acceleration and hills, you'll find the bars will be very comfortable at or forward of the position in the photo since your waist moves closer to the bars if your feet and knees are working correctly. Forgetting to adjust the boot position with the knees will leave you trying to catch up with the bike..   And of course, as we get tired, that seems to be the first thing to fall apart...  you'll probably feel it in your hands before you realize it's a foot problem.

Thanks again 2-Ply!  I will rotate my bars more and try that, and you have officially talked me out of bar risers.  I am riding a 96 rm250, and unfortunately not a trials bike yet.  I just spent time watching all the videos you have on Vimeo too.  Very helpful, and it is now obvious to me that I was doing it wrong, big surprise, I see now that I was not bending my knees enough compared to the videos.  And you just said that above too.  I suppose it could be partly that my bike is giant compared to a trials bike, but I will do better and see how it goes, I am sure it will help, since I did still feel like I was being dragged by my arms sometimes, especially after I was tired.

Happy Memorial Day Everyone!
Dan

[2PLY Get Help Now]

Good Luck NLS1...   It's a never ending lesson. If it would make people feel better, you might like to know that I'm out there TRYING to perfect what I teach too..   So I've got myself in my head repeating what I write here, trying to remember what I've been telling you.

And it really feels good when I do it right but then I catch myself making the same mistakes over and over.  But this was only my third day on the bike since major shoulder surgery in December so I'm not surprised that I tire quickly.  But then, it helps me remember the symptoms of fatigue as part of my lessons so I take a 5 minute break and for the next few minutes, I can put it all together again.

And as far as handlebars go, take a look at what the upper class MX people are using and the settings.  The bend for MX versus Trials is probably very different and for good reasons.  See if you can find out why. I've never ridden MX so I don't know.

[Elessar TT Member]

I feel like I've found another treasure trove of information to put to work here.  This is some of the best information that I've found yet about riding and you guys are great.  I am planning on checking my bar angle and reviewing my riding techniques as I practice in the field behind my house.

I realize that I am riding a monster of the a bike and can't wait to get a real dirt bike for my off-road forays but until then, I'm gonna continue to hang around here and learn some more great stuff.

Thanks again for pointing another noob in the right direction.  

[762SPR TT Gold Member]

Just adding another interesting thing I have discovered since getting my trials bike. I noticed the size comparison between trials and MX bikes. After riding around the trials bike and then hoping on the YZ250F, the YZ definitely feels bigger and bulkier, but it also feels more crowded and I guess a little smaller from a rider position perspective.

This is because of the higher and more forward positioning of the pegs. It actually felt really strange and kind of uneasy to me the first time I was back on the YZ after a few weeks of only riding the Montesa. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm 6'2", it seems I'm a little crowded on any bike I get on!

I wonder what it would feel like to have a MX/enduro style bike with the peg position of a trials bike...?

[Elessar TT Member]

762SPR said:

Just adding another interesting thing I have discovered since getting my trials bike. I noticed the size comparison between trials and MX bikes. After riding around the trials bike and then hoping on the YZ250F, the YZ definitely feels bigger and bulkier, but it also feels more crowded and I guess a little smaller from a rider position perspective.

This is because of the higher and more forward positioning of the pegs. It actually felt really strange and kind of uneasy to me the first time I was back on the YZ after a few weeks of only riding the Montesa. Of course, it doesn't help that I'm 6'2", it seems I'm a little crowded on any bike I get on!

I wonder what it would feel like to have a MX/enduro style bike with the peg position of a trials bike...?

When  I started shopping to replace my Goldwing (hold on, hold on, this is relevant) I started looking for bikes that would fit my 6'3" frame so I was looking for the largest roomiest bike I could find.  I settled on the VStrom based on rider recommendations.  It was especially helpful to have the informed opinions of all those riders to steer me to the correct bike for big riders.  So, what about MX bikes.  Maybe some of the more experienced riders can point at the bikes that provide the roomiest cockpit?

I know that this isn't the best place for this comment and I would expect that a moderator might move this question, but that's what would really help quite a few riders: What bikes provide the roomiest cockpit for big riders?

[2PLY Get Help Now]

I would guess that if you are NOT riding your MX or Enduro bike in competition that you might be able to experiment with a different bend in bars. I haven't heard of any foot peg mods that move them back but they might exist.  Even an inch could make a big difference and gives you better rear tire traction.

As you roll your bars forward, you'll notice the grips will move forward, higher and will tip up a little for better stand-up riding with more room.

Also, I discovered a little more about Whiskey throttle. It appears that it happens to me when I'm tired yet relaxed.  I tend to stand taller with straight legs and then lean over the bars as my legs get tired.  This brings my hands more directly over the grips instead of behind the grips. Now, as the front end hits bumps along the way, the grips are bumped UP into my hand and that can blip the throttle on as I ride with a light grip and relaxed hands.

With my hands behind the grip more as they are when I'm fresh and standing more in an attack position, the up and down movement of the grips is not a problem.

Since people standing on MX or Enduro bikes are more crowded by their bars, that will put your hands more directly above the grips like when I'm tired..

Next time your throttle comes on suddenly over a bump, see if this might be the reason.

[SlapNuts3000 TT Member]

Very helpful thread. It should be a sticky!

[FRECNDY TT Silver Member]

Elessar said:

I know that this isn't the best place for this comment and I would expect that a moderator might move this question, but that's what would really help quite a few riders: What bikes provide the roomiest cockpit for big riders?

You just need to try a lot of bikes. That's one thing that new-bike dealerships are good for. Since starting this thread, I got a Husky TE610 for dual-sport. It's a big bike, but the cockpit was even more compact than the YZ. Interesting detail, the foot pegs on the TE are mounted with bolt-on brackets, so you can actually make an adapter bracket to relocate them down and back. Which you need to do in order to use the shifter. Even with the foot pegs relocated as far as possible, there's less distance between the left peg and the shifter than on the YZ stock.

To get the YZ working for me, I used RC High bars and Rox risers, both arranged to move the grips forward.

[MediumDriver TT Silver Member]

2ply,

Thanks for post all this, I've gone through this and other threads of yours trying to get my head around riding a trials bike, going out this afternoon for the first time, will try to remember some of your advice!

Thanks for the time and effort!

MD

[2PLY Get Help Now]

MediumDriver said:

2ply,

Thanks for post all this, I've gone through this and other threads of yours trying to get my head around riding a trials bike, going out this afternoon for the first time, will try to remember some of your advice!

Thanks for the time and effort!

MD

Well, believe it or not, I'm out there too trying to remember some of my advice..  but if it were easy, it might get boring and I would need to look for another challenge..

[andrzej TT Silver Member]

I stumbled across this book review on Cool Tools yesterday:

http://www.kk.org/co...ives/006144.php

Though the book is about mountain biking, a lot of the concepts would seem to apply to dirt/trials bikes as well, from the sample illustrations provided in the review.

I really like the Cone of Movement concept and diagrams.....illustrates what 2PLY was talking about very well, about leaning the bike under you.





And if you screw up and whiskey it, the "How To Tell if Your Buddy is Seriously Injured" diagram is hillarious.






Ethical trail grooming, anyone?  I know 2PLY is an expert in this from some of his other posts:



Enjoy!

Edited by andrzej, 19 April 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[MG63 TT Bronze Member]

Plushpuppy has got it right:  To brake, while seated, bring your right foot up off the peg, lock your knee against the tank, then push your brake pedal with the ball of your foot/boot.  You can easily modulate the pressure on the pedal and avoid locking up the rear wheel!  Thank God we stand most of the time...........

2-Ply...........Thanks again for those pointers!  I don't know how many times I've had other riders tell me to "squeeze the tank/seat interface with your knees."  I eventually ignored them................and let the bike float underneath me.

Now..........let's all get out and ride!

[slylos TT Newbie]

Hello all - so I've read this topic multiple times, especially all of 2Ply's posts, I've gone riding to practice, come back and read and went and practiced some more.

But I can't seem to stop whisky throttle when standing and attempting to wheelie!!!  

In fact, one of the last times I tried, I got so stuck pulling on the throttle that if the bike had not just run out of lift, I would've definitely ran right into a tree.  And when the bike finally did come down and I could let go of the throttle, my right wrist got tweaked and almost sprained.  I'm going nuts!!

I'm at the point now where when I go to lift the front wheel, I drop my rear end, roll my feet forward on the pegs (I don't "walk" forward or anything, just spin my toes down), to the point where I'm almost straddling the gas tank.  Because of that, the front end barely comes up.  If you can visualize what I'm doing, my lower legs are almost parallel with the ground.  Even still, when the front end really starts to come up, I start whisky throttling and I just cannot understand what's wrong.

I would love it if anyone can provide any tips.  Please note: I don't care about wheelies as much as I care about being able to reliably loft the front wheel to be able to get over logs and larger obstacles.  The first time I tried on my bike (I have a 3 week old 250x), I went up to a log and hit the throttle and pulled back on the bars the way I would've when stand-up wheelie-ing my street bike, and the bike flat out launched over the log, and I got thrown off the bike (I "looped" it, but hey, I cleared the log! ).

It's really killing me to figure out what I'm missing in my posture or in my feet/legs.  If I might summarize, here's what I think I need to do:

• pre-load the suspension to get some bounce/help
  
  
• blip the throttle (the bike lifts the front wheel with no further assistance necessary, but I also tried clutching up) as the suspension rebounds
  
  
• Roll my feet forward, bringing my knees down lower in my stance, pull my arms in to get my chest closer to the bars

No matter what, I can't seem to get my weight off my hands.  I've watched videos of other people doing stand-up wheelies (on dirt  bikes), clearing obstacles (on dirt bikes, not trials, mostly enduro), and I closely study their stance (regular and slow-mo), and honestly they don't seem to do half of what I try with my legs.  My wife seems to think they sort of "jump" to meet the bike up in the air and do a sort of pelvic thrust, but I'm not sure I see that.  I've watched guys who offer "stand-up wheelie instruction" and to be honest it seems like he's hanging off his bars, while his body is back and his legs are almost parallel to the ground; how is that possible!?!?

For some quick background: I come from a street background, where I road raced (mostly track days) and eventually joined a street bike stunt team when I got tired of fixing my bike.  When stand-up wheelieing, I always had my left leg on my passenger peg, which completely took the weight off my hands, so I never ran the risk of whisky throttling.  I know how to wheelie (used to maybe?), and could ride stand-ups and sit-downs around turns at balance point for miles (okay, my max was 1.25 miles).  These days, I don't care about tricks (I'm too old for that), I just want to challenge myself to be able to clear logs and obstacles at my local single track, and help my kids develop good habits for standing riding.  

I greatly appreciate any help you guys can give me ...

As a side note: I've been meditating on the whole thing (yes, I'm obsessing), and I wonder if I stood with my rear sort of poked out in the air (legs straight up and down) and just before I blip the throttle, I sort of pull straight up with my hands (taking the weight off of them and also helping lift the front end, perhaps by visualizing doing a front shoulder raise/lift when lifting dumbells) and attempt to stand on the pegs and sort of "meet" the bike in the air if that would make it work.  It's just so baffling how it seems some guys when they're clearing large logs, the bike is vertical and so are they and they're not falling off the bike and pulling more throttle the way I did in my "looping" incident ...

Edited by slylos, 27 February 2013 - 08:44 PM.

[andrzej TT Silver Member]

Hey Stylos...gonna be hard to diagnose the problem based on a text description, since most people are very poor at knowing what is going on with their body position and such.....so I suggest one of the following two options:

1) Shoot and post a video of you trying a wheelie
2) Sign up for a training session somewhere they can analyze what's going on in person.

....A

[slylos TT Newbie]

andrzej, on 28 February 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

Hey Stylos...gonna be hard to diagnose the problem based on a text description, since most people are very poor at knowing what is going on with their body position and such.....so I suggest one of the following two options:

1) Shoot and post a video of you trying a wheelie
2) Sign up for a training session somewhere they can analyze what's going on in person.

....A

Thanks andrzej.

Okay so thought I would update everyone.  I cheated a little today: I brought the tailgate down on my truck, propped my front tire into the bed of my truck with my frame against the tailgate and tied the bike down to my bed using tow straps, so my bike was locked in solid against my truck with the back tire on the ground (the bike was basically in a wheelie position).

I hopped on the bike and tried to stand on it and find a position where my weight was *not* on my hands.  I couldn't find one.  When I sort of "hopped" from a seated position to standing and pushed the handlebars into my pelvis, weight came off my hand completely for about 2-3 seconds and was all on my feet, and so I can start to really envision hopping over bigger obstacles (I estimate the height of my front wheel while it was in my truck was a little over 3 feet high) but I cannot envision riding a stand-up wheelie.  I can't for the life of me figure out how anyone does it.  I can wheelie sitting down with no issue whatsoever (I've never whiskey throttled sitting, no weight on my hands at all), but standing at this point seems to be out ...