81 replies to this topic

[1st4stroke41 TT Silver Member]

It works for sure, on a big bike like say a goldwing it's a must for quick reaction. It's the taking it over board I was talking about. If you push it hard and say drag your foot peg your asking for it.

You can throw it down so hard you'll low side and skin your butt good. For a dirt bike in the woods the speeds are so low I'm not sure it would work very well and my bike is so quick steering it's certainly not needed, for me anyway.

Be careful and don't take it to the extreme, I've seen first hand what can happen. My brother slide 70 feet after he went down, lost a helmet, jeans, skin, plastic, exhaust and some pride.

[Greg Y TT Silver Member]

I started practicing this 30 years ago. The key is faith, throttle and balance.......and good boots...lol. as soon as you drop the power it will straighten the bike unless you are really pitched, and mx type suspension is pretty stiff to keep up when sideways....keep it wrung.

[Cuchara Red TT Gold Member]

slaydirt said:

when talking about counter steering we are talking about a flat track style turn right?,rear wheel sliding, front turned away from the slide???i posted in the counter steer thread yesterday or the day before and now i think i might just look stupid?

I think countersteering has two slightly different definitions even tho' the front wheel is aimed in the same direction in both cases.  

-On the street a slight steering movement away from the direction you want to go (done with downward/forward shove on the bars to initiate movement) causes the bike to lean away from that movement, and into the direction of the turn.  All done naturally and without thought.  A rider doesn't think about it, he/she simply does it, and the bike starts turning in the direction you needed. It's only a twitch or pressure to initiate the turn and then the bar is returned back more or less straight ahead. But, since you've steered in the opposite direction you want to go, it's a counter-steer.

-The same motion has been described for dirt use if the traction is really good. However, that's not the dirt countersteer as I understand it. You've almost described it, but the front is turned into the turn, not away.  Turn it away and you go down, probably in a highside.  By steering into the direction the rear is slding you keep the front moving ahead of the sliding rear and the total bike motion forward.  If the rear is "catching up" to the front, the turn radius is tightened. If the rear is "falling behind" the front, the turn radius is getting larger (as in finishing up the corner).

Does my mind understand all this?  Yep.  Can my body/muscles make it happen in the dirt? Nope. And I'm not sure I've got enough riding time left to get the muscle memory training in place.  I can have plenty of riding fun without being able to pull off a nice countersteered corner.       I still try though.

[FRECNDY TT Silver Member]

More mountain biking input. Went on Saturday. Not in really awesome shape right now, but did a bunch of trails in an area I know well. I'm usually pretty whupped at the end, often end with my quads cramping. It was a little cooler than usual with some light cloud cover and my buddy wasn't really all there, so I probably went slower on average and took longer breaks.

However, I made one change, based on 2PLY's advice. I really focused on keeping my weight balanced over the pedals when standing climbing, with my hands balanced on the bars, not pulling on them. I thought I did this before, but must have not really been. It made a huge difference. I was able to climb standing more often and for longer without exhausting my muscles. I was smoother and more relaxed, which helped bike control. I had better ability to absorb a slipping rear tire without losing momentum and drive.

At the end of the ride, I was much less tired than usual, and no cramping. There were too many other factors to say it was all the technique, but I'm sure it helped. I'm also sure it will translate well to the YZ.

[2PLY Get Help Now]

It takes a little more concentration and focus but really extends your endurance as well as your over-all control.

However, eventually, you'll reach the fatigue point and that is when it will all fall apart quickly IF you don't take a break.  As we get tired, we tend to stop adjusting our stance and just sit or stand in one place. this will accelerate your fatigue.

Take breaks when you feel the control slipping. Take a camera and use that time for some scenery shots to share with the rest of us.

Whenever my control seems to slip or I start having trouble, I focus on what my hands are doing..  If they are tight, tired and feeling like arm pump is creeping up on me, it's a clear sign that something is not working with my lower body.  When the feet through the quads are not working correctly, it puts all of the load to your hands and arms. If I can't correct the lower leg suspension immediately, it's time to take a break.

[slaydirt TT Gold Member]

yeah 2ply thats goos advise,2 weeks ago i got 8 staples just below my knee cap because after 120miles of trail and dirt roads i felt the need to hit our table top jump a few times,got crossed up on the takeoff,not to bad usally i could have recovered it but was fatigued and went down,then to the ER lol

[llamaface Get Help Now]

I would suggest to the OP (since I didn't see it in a cursory  browse of any of the other replies) to think hard about riding with your elbows up and out, so that instead of turning the throttle by bending your wrist, you roll your whole forearm. This has been effective for me (and others I have worked with) at keeping good centered body position and avoiding whisky throttle situations.

[slaydirt TT Gold Member]

i worked on the loose grip centered gravity thing today on some very loose rocky uphill mountain trails today,when i say rocky im talking rocks ranging from bowling ball size to golfball size,i found it very hard to keep a loose grip in those conditions,did great coming down the trails but going up i was kinda white knuckling to hold on and stay in control,and it was very hard to hold a line...any suggestions?

[2PLY Get Help Now]

slaydirt said:

i worked on the loose grip centered gravity thing today on some very loose rocky uphill mountain trails today,when i say rocky im talking rocks ranging from bowling ball size to golfball size,i found it very hard to keep a loose grip in those conditions,did great coming down the trails but going up i was kinda white knuckling to hold on and stay in control,and it was very hard to hold a line...any suggestions?

Any time you are concerned about what's coming and unsure of the outcome, it's natural to

Quote

"..kinda white knuckling to hold on and stay in control..."

The times that it's MOST important to allow the bike to dance under you is most likely the times you are apt to want to take an extra strong grip and clamp the boots to the frame...   See if you can get a video of yourself in part of that rocky section that bothers you and maybe a video clip or two of yourself in the sections that you feel good and compare your knee and foot action between the clips..  

And llamaface has a good point about elbows up and out...   it's part of the whole package in allowing the bike room to dance around a little while your upper body tries to remain over your intended line

[DaToNyOyO TT Member]

@2PLY

Dude! You have seriously transformed my riding!

I tilted my bars forward a bit instead of buying taller bars and my confidence off road (especially in ruts) is a revelation.

Now I'm concentrating on my feet, and rolling them back and forth, when I throttle and brake I no longer feel like the bike is dragging me by my arms. I feel so much more in control of everything. Locking my knees to the bike was making it fell like, if the bike was going I'm going with it.

Now I just let the bike float around under me and control it with my feet and just float with it. Shifting my bars, and standing in a better position has made of road so much more pleasure than fear. I think part of my problem was--coming from sports bikes--that I was always on the balls of my feet, not on the arch, so I was always tipping back. I never noticed I was doing it though.

Thanks man. Maximum respect.

[BryanK TT Bronze Member]

DaToNyOyO said:

@2PLY

Now I just let the bike float around under me and control it with my feet and just float with it. Shifting my bars, and standing in a better position has made of road so much more pleasure than fear. I think part of my problem was--coming from sports bikes--that I was always on the balls of my feet, not on the arch, so I was always tipping back. I never noticed I was doing it though.

Thanks man. Maximum respect.

Careful! You should always have the balls of your feet on the footpegs. If you don't, you toes will point down and hit something nasty like a rock or tree stump.

I see guys riding with thier feet pointed down like this all the time, this is until they break a toe.

[slaydirt TT Gold Member]

so are we supposed to be riding on the balls of our feet or the arches????

[762SPR TT Gold Member]

You can still shift your weight on the balls of your feet. I try to stay on them unless Im shifting or breaking.

[2PLY Get Help Now]

slaydirt said:

so are we supposed to be riding on the balls of our feet or the arches????

In normal riding, you only encounter really difficult terrain in short sections. Standing more toward your toes gives you better leg suspension as your calf muscles and ankle joints come into play.  However, unless you are Iron Man, you will fatigue much quicker on the toes than on your arches.

Let the terrain situation dictate where you stand. When things are easy, why not sit with from 20 to 60% of you weight still on the pegs.  Stand when things get a little rough and you want a better view ahead. As things get more rough, shift your boots more to the toes or the balls of your feet for more leg suspension and then back to the arches when the going gets more easy.  That's what I do except that I don't have a seat, so I take breaks at good view points and play with my camera.

It's all a matter of degree..  And even when on the seat as long as you don't sit there like a lump, you are still using the same moves and balance control that you do while standing, just at a different level.

The terrain varies, your speed varies, so it's only natural that your stance and control will vary.

[slaydirt TT Gold Member]

man i wish one or two of you guys could come help me tackle this rocky hill climb...ive always considered my self a pretty good rider but this hill still sends me away with my tail tucked between my legs,its not super steep just rocky as all hell,the rear end kicks around causing me to loose my line and the front end bounces off rocks as well making it all more of a challenge...maybe ill get it next weekend

[MrSmooth TT Addict]

slaydirt said:

man i wish one or two of you guys could come help me tackle this rocky hill climb...ive always considered my self a pretty good rider but this hill still sends me away with my tail tucked between my legs,its not super steep just rocky as all hell,the rear end kicks around causing me to loose my line and the front end bounces off rocks as well making it all more of a challenge...maybe ill get it next weekend

Are you standing while attempting the hill?

[slaydirt TT Gold Member]

yes sir i am standing,last time, standing, practicing the leg work we are talking about on this thread,also practicing loose grip tips...this hill is just a real b*@*h!!!!theres a turn in it and a 3' deep rut stepped like a waterfall from erosion,in 2 different spots...i can make it around 1 of the ruts but the one near the top gets me every time...once i get sideways on the trail and have to stop i cant really get going on the trail again because of all the frickin rocks

[NLS1 TT Newbie]

2-ply
Simply fabulous info, I can't wait to specifically try what you have said.  Makes perfect sense.  I never found gripping the seat wth the legs to do anything for me other than make it harder to control.  In fact last time I rode I almost had a couple whiskey throttle get- offs!  Now I know why! Duh!

I own a lawn service and I use a Wright Stander mower, the kind where you stand on back between the drive wheels.  On the mower I am so conscious of weighting the place where I stand , and not hanging onto the controls, I almost don't touch the bars accept to steer.  Acceleration, slowing, side-hilling, etc, all controlled by how I roll my weight forward and back, side to side, over my feet.  

I know I try to let the bike do it's thing under me, but your description has made me aware, and I am excited to practice now the right technique.  I can immediately sense that by understanding now what you said, that my riding will only get better from here!

Thanks a bunch 2-ply!
Dan

[2PLY Get Help Now]

NLS1 said:

2-ply
......

I know I try to let the bike do it's thing under me, but your description has made me aware, and I am excited to practice now the right technique.  I can immediately sense that by understanding now what you said, that my riding will only get better from here!

Thanks a bunch 2-ply!
Dan

Good to hear!  There is a lot more once you get the fundamentals down pat, but none of the advanced stuff will work until you have this one basic element learned well enough that you don't even have to think about it. I have found that if you can master even just this one principle, you can outperform 95% of the other riders out there.

Keep in mind that it's not a simple task...  even after 35 years, I'm STILL trying to master it.  Even last weekend on my first ride after shoulder surgery last Autumn, there they were!!!  Bad habits!!  Pulling on the bars for turns, stiff knees causing me to fall back when hitting the gas and all of the stuff I preach about  

But for those that are having some trouble, getting tired and having trouble bouncing around in the rough stuff, I can't stress enough how valuable a structured video review of your riding can be.  So many times when I find a rider that says to me that it's not working for him and they swear they are doing it correctly, a little video shows it all...     very humbling and very helpful..   Just find that spot that gives you trouble and set up a little video camera where you can see yourself from the side or 45 degree angle, or have a friend shoot from a key spot and if your camera allows like my little Canon ELF does, watch the video back right there in super slow motion.   On my camera, I just hit the pause button and then the fast forward while in pause to activate slow motion replay.

And for those that think this is only for slow riding, I've heard more than one super fast guy say that in order to learn how to go fast, you first have to master going slow.  

[DABling TT Member]

slaydirt said:

yes sir i am standing,last time, standing, practicing the leg work we are talking about on this thread,also practicing loose grip tips...this hill is just a real b*@*h!!!!theres a turn in it and a 3' deep rut stepped like a waterfall from erosion,in 2 different spots...i can make it around 1 of the ruts but the one near the top gets me every time...once i get sideways on the trail and have to stop i cant really get going on the trail again because of all the frickin rocks

What gear are you riding in? I just came off the Desert Assasins "Rip to the Tip" and I can tell you that riding the uphill rocky sections was my weak spot. After getting to spend some time riding and talking with Johnny Campbell and some other epic riders he really turned it around for me. Clicking up a gear higher than I think I need to be in clamping the bike with my legs (at the right times) and linear clutch work turned a miserable rocky section into something I look forward to now. Momentum and lack of wheel spin were key to crawling up these gnarly hills in the Baja. Where in AZ are you riding?

Edited by 50GRIT, 24 May 2011 - 03:30 PM.
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