33 replies to this topic

[crf450319 TT Silver Member]

Hey Guys,

I'm working on a friend's 2007 crf450r, started out just wanting to replace fork seals but realized that the cartridge seals are both shot. When I compress the dampning rod into the chamber it only comes back about 4", I've tried bleeding the air out but I'm losing oil through that seal at the bottom of the cartridge.

My question is this, I've read (through searching) that you've got to drill out the "peen" in all 4 spots on the bottom of the cartridge. Are you supposed to drill right through the wall of the cartridge, or only 1/32" ? If you'd drill right through the wall I can't see it having any sort of adverse effect as it wouldn't allow the oil in the cartridge to migrate to the fork tube.
Thanks in advance for your help !

Edited by crf450319, 02 April 2011 - 05:49 AM.

[kan3 TT Titanium Member]

Side note:

You should use other fork fluid besides Bel Ray

[oabike TT Bronze Member]

You drill thru just to remove the peening on the threads of the seal head. Ideally you want to secure the cartridge in a vise with some aluminum shaft holders and a 32 mm wrench to steady everything. The head unscrews from the bottom with a big allen wrench. The head is loctited to the cartridge so you'll need to heat it.

[crf450319 TT Silver Member]

Wow, from what I'd read online I was thinking I should just send the cartridge(s) away to have the seals replaced. Which would have been a complete waste of time and money.

I should mention that I do all of my own suspension work, I service my forks (both chambers) and replace the shock fluid every 20 hours of runtime. So far, the only job I'd farm out is a re-valve as there's just too much trial and error to do that on my own. So maybe if you've never had a set of forks apart, this job might not be for you ?

3 things I learned :

#1)  This is far too easy to do, knowing what I know now I'd never even consider sending the cartridges away to have the seals replaced.

#2)  There's no need what so ever to spend $59.99 + shipping on a shaft holder, not that it wouldn't be a nice tool to have, but completely un-necessary.

#3) ** MORE THAN LIKELY THE MOST IMPORTANT ** The thickness of the outer cartridge wall is approx. 1.51 - 1.6 millemeters thick, I more than likely didn't drill more than 1.4mm into the dimples. I'd drill for 2 or 3 seconds, then look at how far I'd gone, then drill 2 or 3 seconds and look. I did that until I thought I'd gone deep enough - Keep in mind you only need to go about 1.5mm.

Here are some pics :


At this point I'd already had the seal head out, before I'd had it out the drill mark looked uniform and I couldn't really see the threads. I used my 2lb propane torch to apply some heat before I put the allen wrench on, I spent about 2 minutes warming the cartridge.

Bought this 17mm allen head wrench for $22

Edited by crf450319, 01 April 2011 - 11:07 AM.
Added some info.

[kan3 TT Titanium Member]

Have you ever though about trying Dave's oil?  The service time is 5-6x what you're doing right now.

[crf450319 TT Silver Member]

kan3 said:

Have you ever though about trying Dave's oil?  The service time is 5-6x what you're doing right now.

Yes I've thought about it. I don't doubt that it's great oil, but I know for a fact that I would end up changing it more often that every 100/120 hours. I run Amsoil syn. in my Civic, they say I can go 10,000 miles between changes, but I still change it every 4300 miles (I commute an hour to work 25,000 miles a year). It holds 3 quarts, I run good oil and I change it regularly.

I just don't think at 50/70/90/110+ hours of MX use that the 450 milliliters (whatever the actual amount) of shock fluid is going to perform like it did at 20/30 hours. Have you ever tried to touch your shock reservoir after a 20 min. moto, I have and you can't keep your hand on there for more than 4 or 5 seconds. To have such a miniscule amount of oil heat cycled that many times, and to have it pushed through the piston/valving for such an extended amount of time. I think I'll stick with my routine.

The only oil I've run in my forks/shock is Torco RFF and RSF 100% syn. The Belray in the pic was used to lube up my fork bullet.

I like the idea of taking the suspension apart on a regular basis, if nothing else to keep an eye on the internals. I'd like to try Dave's stuff, but I don't have the $$ to put his oil in then run it for 20/30 hours, take it out to inspect (just out of my own curiosity) and replace with new stuff.

Edited by crf450319, 02 April 2011 - 06:37 AM.

[PGHCaptain TT Member]

Thank you so much for detailing how to do this procedure.  I am doing exactly the same thing right now.  I have a few questions though.

1. Does drilling into the peening and into the threads make putting the end back on difficult or cause any leaks?  Also how tight is this end cap?  I am so worried about messing up my damper clamping it and torquing some end off that they meant not to be servicable by the average joe lol.  

2. What is the torque spec this end cap should be tightened back to? Should you use anything on the threads?  Sealer, locktight, etc..

See my problem was that I discovered while bleeding the damper is the rod would fully extend on its own and be nice and stiff at first pushing back up into the damper.  But while bleeding the damper you could see the fluid coming out the bottom totally soaking the rod and hear air sucking past that little seal that we are referencing in this procedure.  By the time I was done the rod would be decently easy to push in and out.  Thats no good.  I looked at the bushings on the base stack and mid stack and they look good, as do all the o-rings.  The new bushing kit I bought for the forks come with all of that I believe, except the bushing on the mid valve. I have to order the little seal seperate from factory connection as you know.

Do you think my forks will be back to normal after all this?

[kan3 TT Titanium Member]

PGHCaptain said:

1. Does drilling into the peening and into the threads make putting the end back on difficult or cause any leaks?

No, there is an o-ring above the peens on the showas

Quote

Also how tight is this end cap?  I am so worried about messing up my damper clamping it and torquing some end off that they meant not to be servicable by the average joe lol.

Drill the peens out past the body like shown above and apply some heat for a minute or two.  It should come out with relatively easily with a 15" torque wrench  

Quote

2. What is the torque spec this end cap should be tightened back to? Should you use anything on the threads?  Sealer, locktight, etc..

I would suggest thread locker and torque it by feel.

Quote

Do you think my forks will be back to normal after all this?

Yes

[gman255 TT Gold Member]

I recently replace Showa Cartridge seals as well. Great instruction thread BTW CRF450319. For added insurance I also replaced the inner floating piston seal while I was at it...

These weren't has much fun tho- This was my approach to replacing them (I should of took some Pics).

Disassemble the base valve assemble, spring, lock nut, compression needle etc.

Removed the retaining clip and washer, O-ring and outer Bushings.

I used a little heat and a large "easy-out" to remove the seal.

Replace seal and reassemble- be sure to Teflon the threads on the compression tube.

[kan3 TT Titanium Member]

How long do you think it took with the ez-out?  I did mine and this way took about 30min in total compared to a couple of hours my first attempt.  I would try another way if it's faster.  I have to do my friends forks here next week with blown ics seals.

Put it in the oven to 250f

Then use a small screw driver to tap the seal up a bit from the back side to start it

Put it back in the oven to 250f

Use a bearing puller and pull out the seal

[Benny477 TT Member]

I need to do this now after replacing cartridge seals. Could you guys show me some pics of the procedure.

[pro-rider46 TT Member]

x2
...

[davomoto TT Newbie]

Where did you get the seals? Honda doesn't even show it in the parts diagram!

  Thanks, Davo

[kan3 TT Titanium Member]

davomoto said:

Where did you get the seals? Honda doesn't even show it in the parts diagram!

  Thanks, Davo

You can call any suspension company that works on showa stuff and they should have some in stock.  Mx-tech has them listed on their website to order if you don't want to call.

[PGHCaptain TT Member]

davomoto said:

Where did you get the seals? Honda doesn't even show it in the parts diagram!

  Thanks, Davo

http://shop.synergys...0912-R1-SWA.htm

Those are the cartridge seals that I used on my 03 forks. Work very well, only time will tell though. But after performing this procedure and thankfully doing a good job my forks feel like new. I want to thank the OP of this thread, and ShawnMC for help, part links, and advice. Its easy just take your time and do your homework.

[cdf450 TT Silver Member]

well.. I have had this thread in my bookmarks now for almost 6 months. I FINALLY got around to doing my ICS seals. I have had the seals ordered 4 months ago sitting waiting for me.

I work on my forks all day long, finally get them apart, finally get the seal out and guess what... ive got the wrong ICS seals!!!!! :foul:

I ordered | SFS-0910-R1 SWA  | Showa 47mm Fork 10mm ICS Piston Twin  |    $24.00  |      $24.00
                        | Chamber Seals  

I have a 2005 crf450r... what did I do wrong. this is not cool. my forks are in a million pieces and by the looks of it, my new ICS seals wont be in for 2 weeks... the forks cant sit in a million pieces in the shop for 2 weeks.

[cdf450 TT Silver Member]

the blue one is mine. the black one is the one I ordered from synergy and was the wrong one.

[kan3 TT Titanium Member]

The blue seal isn't an ICS seal, it's the damper rod seal at the bottom of the cartridge.  You ordered an ICS seal and you want the one that was linked to by PHGCaptain which is :

http://shop.synergys....912-R1-SWA.htm

[cdf450 TT Silver Member]

so this thread and pictures are catridge seals? and I ordered an ICS seal?

ICS - internal cartridge seal?

that sure sucks I ordered the wrong ones and found out 6 months later. I guess I will replace the ICS seals too while im in there as well as the cartridge seals.

[Vietze TT Silver Member]

ICS = Inner cartridge spring