04 crf 450 gearing


45 replies to this topic
  • KPL69

Posted January 27, 2011 - 06:26 PM

#1

I just got a 04 crf 450 and wondering what the best gearing is for all types of riding from track to trail. It has the factory 13/48 on it but i heard 14/52 is better. I live in colorado so any type of riding is available here. Please help thi is my first 4 stroke and i am used to riding a 2 stroke for the last 20 years

  • MELK-MAN

Posted January 27, 2011 - 06:35 PM

#2

13/48 vs 14/52 is so close (3.69 vs 3.71) you would have a hard time telling the difference. They (the bike manufacturers) pick final drive ratios with some deliberation and input from test riders. it usually works pretty good for most applications of what the bike was intended to do and a fair variety of rider abilities. Best thing is to try some stuff and see for yourself. However, you can save yourself a few $ and just get a 49 (13/49 = 3.77) and your about identical but don't have to buy a front sprocket.

  • fmv60691

Posted January 27, 2011 - 10:15 PM

#3

I find the 13/48 ok for MX tracks although others prefer 13/49 for MX. The 13/48 is a little tall for tight tracks and slow/techniclal trails. I'd use 13/49 for both, its a good compromise. If you go to 13/50 you will have to swich gears too often at MX tracks and might loose too much top speed at fast trails.

I like the 13/50 only for SX, even 12/48 which makes the bike a torque monster

Edited by fmv60691, January 27, 2011 - 10:17 PM.
sp


  • ACTman

Posted January 29, 2011 - 08:44 PM

#4

I run a 13/53 and a wide ratio gear set and like it a lot. Top speed has increased, but low gear is now more useful for tight single track. It's not as extreme as the 450X gearing and it still didn't seem to compromise too much at the track.

  • daddyo

Posted January 30, 2011 - 05:28 PM

#5

Here in the deserts of So Cal, the 13-48 is a good compromise. Pretty good gear spread, wish it was lower in the tech stuff, wish it was taller on the fast trails.

You need to ride it and see how it is in the type of riding you like to do. Then you can decide to gear up, gear down, do some other modifications.

  • gotwings

Posted January 30, 2011 - 07:01 PM

#6

I like 13/51 on my '04, it will pull the gnarliest uphill switchback, with little clutch, or will still go about 60 mph top speed, which is plenty for me

  • JJRace

Posted January 30, 2011 - 09:04 PM

#7

I love the numerical ratio rational for people that have never ran the 14/52. It totally changes the bike. I have run the 13/48 and the 13/49 and the 13/50, but with the 14 up front feels like the bike is always on the pipe. Changes the torque characteristic a lot on the bike.

  • MrPower

Posted January 31, 2011 - 01:55 PM

#8

i think its all personal preference, every one rides in differnt environmants, and have diffeent comfort feel or like. A hundred people could comment on your post and you probably well get a dousin combos. which is good, gives an idea of the most common likes. but what i do is leave the front sporcket at 13, witch is good all round and play with 48 to 53 rear, witch going lower or higher well be too extreme in my opinion, unless road riding or rock trials are your things. i personally like 13 to 50 for all on my 02, but ithink the gearing has changed from 02 to 04

  • MELK-MAN

Posted January 31, 2011 - 03:20 PM

#9

I love the numerical ratio rational for people that have never ran the 14/52. It totally changes the bike. I have run the 13/48 and the 13/49 and the 13/50, but with the 14 up front feels like the bike is always on the pipe. Changes the torque characteristic a lot on the bike.


JJRace, you post lots of good stuff but physics are pysics. I as well have ran various drive ratios on roadrace bikes and crf450 in dirt and supermoto. The diff in 13/49 (ratio of 3.77) vs. 14/52 (3.71) is nothing final drive wise and saying so is just about silly. it is a huge diff in axle position. final drive is final drive, the "feeling" you may have experienced could have been the axle position difference.

For instance.. i have a 8x11 axle position chart as axle position can mean the difference between a stable bike and one that isn't, or one that turns good or sluggish. (don't have numbers for small fronts as we only use 15,16,17 on the yamaha r6) but:

16/45,ratio 2.81 on a 116 link has the axle way back position 2.5 (of 10-1)
17/48,ratio 2.82 on a 116 link has the axle way UP at position 9.5 (of 10-1)

No friggin way can you feel the difference, or probably measure with awesome telemetry the speed diff of 2.81 vs 2.82.. the wear of the tires mid race would likely measure more.. LOL..

  • DIKKSTARR

Posted January 31, 2011 - 03:33 PM

#10

Hes right 14/52 feels better than 13/48. It seems to have an amplified torque feel to this gearing.

I ran 13/49 since I bought my 05, then just changed to 14/52. It still has the explosive hit of 13/49, but pulls harder than 13/48.

You really have to try it to know what we are talking about.

Not to mention the chain and sprockets last a little longer because there is more teeth and a less tighter turn the chain has to make around a smaller front sprocket.

The rear shock works better too.

Never heard of axle position changing the power delivery of an engine?!! What if I add a link to my 13/48 combo to put the axle farther back? Will I loose two hp?

  • MELK-MAN

Posted January 31, 2011 - 03:40 PM

#11

don't buy it but we can agree to disagree.. I will agree the sprockets/chain lasting a little longer as there is more material. However you guys are buying into some preconcieved hype.. for whatever reason i don't know.. (imo) if you think 2.81 vs 2.82 drive ratio using your sprocket size examples, changes anything at the rear wheel (keeping AXLE postition the same).. and you should be able to do that by adding a link. Changing the "torque characteristic".. with different sprocket sizes but SAME DRIVE RATIO? No, and putting your own bike on a dyno would prove it to you. I HAVE seen it on dynos with my own eyes on my own bikes and others for nearly a decade. In fact, HP numbers don't even change with ACTUAL gearing changes. How bout them apples? These are facts printed out in black and white (and red and blue DynoJett printouts..lol), not perceptions nor assumptions.

My guess is you left the chain the same length, and the massive change in axle position is what you were feeling as that WILL affect handling and the leverage applied to the shock. Been here.. done it.. And pretty much all im gonna say on that. Sorry the topic got kinda sidetracked but it sort of is still in reference to gearing choice.

Edited by MELK-MAN, January 31, 2011 - 03:57 PM.


  • DIKKSTARR

Posted February 01, 2011 - 02:00 AM

#12

You are talking about drive torque on the chasis??

Im taliking about the feel of the power delivery of the motor not the rear wheel. It is delivered differently with a larger front sprocket.

Yeah the end number(gear ratio) might be the same or very close, but they feel different when you are riding. Like the trans and engine have more leverage on the tire.

I ride in dunes with a paddle tire. 14/52 seems to work better than 13/48 and 49.

  • 98cr250r

Posted February 01, 2011 - 04:32 AM

#13

don't buy it but we can agree to disagree.. I will agree the sprockets/chain lasting a little longer as there is more material. However you guys are buying into some preconcieved hype.. for whatever reason i don't know.. (imo) if you think 2.81 vs 2.82 drive ratio using your sprocket size examples, changes anything at the rear wheel (keeping AXLE postition the same).. and you should be able to do that by adding a link. Changing the "torque characteristic".. with different sprocket sizes but SAME DRIVE RATIO? No, and putting your own bike on a dyno would prove it to you. I HAVE seen it on dynos with my own eyes on my own bikes and others for nearly a decade. In fact, HP numbers don't even change with ACTUAL gearing changes. How bout them apples? These are facts printed out in black and white (and red and blue DynoJett printouts..lol), not perceptions nor assumptions.

My guess is you left the chain the same length, and the massive change in axle position is what you were feeling as that WILL affect handling and the leverage applied to the shock. Been here.. done it.. And pretty much all im gonna say on that. Sorry the topic got kinda sidetracked but it sort of is still in reference to gearing choice.


How big of a change do you think it takes to make a noticeable difference?

I don't remember if he said tooth numbers, but a pro mechanic was talking about changing sprockets for conditions at the last supercross race. One sprocket when the track is tacky, and a different sprocket when its slick. How big do you think their changes are, for the rider to notice the difference?

jus curious whatcha think :thumbsup:

  • gotwings

Posted February 01, 2011 - 09:44 AM

#14

Moving the rear wheel will have a remarkable effect on rear wheel traction, thus making you "feel" like there's more torque, when in acuality there is just more traction, so more drive. Moving the rear wheel back will allow the drive line to dig the wheel into the ground with more force.

  • MELK-MAN

Posted February 01, 2011 - 09:57 AM

#15

How big of a change do you think it takes to make a noticeable difference?

I don't remember if he said tooth numbers, but a pro mechanic was talking about changing sprockets for conditions at the last supercross race. One sprocket when the track is tacky, and a different sprocket when its slick. How big do you think their changes are, for the rider to notice the difference?

jus curious whatcha think :thumbsup:


you were watching the Gibbs race team mech, but please keep in mind he is discussing changes for a rider of the TOP PRO ability, and on finely tuned machines with the best of the best..
However, that tip was very very good for even club racers like us. Going smaller with the rear sprocket smooths out the power (as honda did on the crf450 going from a stock 50t to a 48t). You need smooth, manageable power when conditions get slick. It can be said you need smooth power when it is tacky as well, cause with awesome grip the bike can wheelie easier and affect how the chassie reacts with lots of force being put through the rear suspension then further forward.. Same with roadracing in the rain, you often will short shift to keep the rear wheel from loosing traction, especially in long sweeping corners.. In the rain you do NOT want the power coming on like you do in dry conditions. Because in the rain if the tire breaks loose, you have less chance to recover. (short shift-don't rev out in each gear, keeping rpm's lower).

How much diff? Some talented riders will notice 1 tooth on the rear, some couldn't tell you if you added 1 to the front or not (1 at front is equal to 3 at the rear +- minor fractions).
Get a couple and try it for yourself.. see what YOU like.

As "gotwings" points out above, axle position does affect traction. Also of significant importance for traction is swingarm ANGLE. Many roadrace bikes today are coming with adjustable swingarm pivots. Steeper swingarm angle = more traction. BUT, sometimes more traction creates it's own set of problems. I had a 05 gsxr1000 i raced in 2006. Rear wheel spun a fair amount but the bike was super stable. We added swingarm pivots to raise swingarm angle. Got more traction, but there was so much headshake ya lost confidence to hold the throttle 100%. Could have spent more time n money sorting it out further, but said screw it and put the stock pivots back in.. There are MILLIONS of suspension/chassie combos.

  • Shawn_Mc

Posted February 01, 2011 - 09:58 AM

#16

The traction is why Honda went with the 13/48 from 13/50 in the first place in 04. They bumped the compression ratio and lightened the flywheel which lit up the motor pretty significantly. Why Honda didnt go with the 14/52 could simply be cost. The bigger gearing and longer chain cost more. Maybe only a couple bucks, but over thousands of units...

Changing the torque on the chassis is huge. When you can move the rear wheel forward, the bike handles differently, quicker. Noticably quicker. When the rear wheel is hooking up because its not torque loading the chassis, the chassis is quick and accurate and youve got the valving in the suspension right and your not packing it up too, youve got one hell of a bike.

There's a reason why you can qualify at a national on a stock engine if the rest of the bike is right. Gavin Gracyk did it and so have many others racing out of the back of a pick up truck.

  • DIKKSTARR

Posted February 01, 2011 - 11:43 AM

#17

14/52 moved my axle foward enough for my tire to almost hit the swingarm. 13/49 was almost 1.5 inches rearward from the 14/52.

I still feel more torque with the 14/52 and my axle forward.

  • fmv60691

Posted February 01, 2011 - 02:49 PM

#18

I can feel one tooth on the rear sprocket, especially at jumps. On the other hand NEVER felt any difference moving the axle back or forward. I'm certanly not a pro neither a talented rider

  • MELK-MAN

Posted February 01, 2011 - 03:39 PM

#19

14/52 moved my axle foward enough for my tire to almost hit the swingarm. 13/49 was almost 1.5 inches rearward from the 14/52.

I still feel more torque with the 14/52 and my axle forward.


.. i have a bridge to sell you too.. :thumbsup: Guys, final drive ratio is final drive ratio. The feeling of more power with the axle forward could be due to the shorter wheelbase, the bike is gonna lift the front that little bit easier, leading to a sensation of more power.

The bigger sprocket on the front is equally reacted upon by the larger rear, exactly in the same manner the slightly smaller (13) is reacted upon by the smaller (49).
Moving the axle forward and back due to the differences in gearing WILL affect the way the bike works (although many riders would never feel/know it), but is independent of the final drive ratio entirely. Often rides want to keep the same drive ratio but move the axle position. A gearing selection with the same drive ratio and perhaps a link in the chain +- is how you achieve that.


I can feel one tooth on the rear sprocket, especially at jumps. On the other hand NEVER felt any difference moving the axle back or forward. I'm certanly not a pro neither a talented rider


Nothing wrong with that. Many riders won't feel a small gearing change. Some riders won't know if the axle is forward or back, or even if the axle nut is LOOSE.. But to have some say they can "feel" and get better "tourque" going from 13/49 to 14/52 when it is exactly the same final drive is just silly! I am litterally laughing right now in fact.. :ride:


..but i could be wrong, can someone help me figure out which sprocket combos will give the best torque and work best for next weekends harescramble and the ccs roadrace the weekend after that? I have a few i need to choose from
:lol:
Posted Image

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Edited by MELK-MAN, February 01, 2011 - 05:39 PM.


  • fmv60691

Posted February 01, 2011 - 11:19 PM

#20

FR RE RATIO
12 48 4
13 48 3,69
13 49 3,77
13 50 3,85
13 51 3,92
13 52 4
14 52 3,71

Never tried the 14/52. Although I ususally read people raving about it here...I can understand sprockets and chain last longer. It adds more unsprung weight & gyroscopic effect too....

I used once a rear 51 sprocket and it rubs the chain guide. In fact it lasted only for a few hours. Burnt all the plastic and aluminium. Had to replace the complete part. I never go beyond 50 teeth anymore.

I agree you cant feel the diference from 3,69 to 3,71 ratios. Never felt any difference moving the rear axle forward or backwards either. In fact, I think moving 2mm your forks up or down is more noticeable. At least I can feel the difference there

Edited by fmv60691, February 01, 2011 - 11:21 PM.
sp






Related Content

Forums
Photo

2002 Crf450r by missouri-man


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   CRF450R
  • Hot  30 replies
Forums
Photo

2014 Honda crf450r problems by Tjcrf450r


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   CRF450R
  • 20 replies
Forums
Photo

2003 crf450r by bain33


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   CRF450R
  • Hot  29 replies
Forums
Photo

06 crf450r by tw191


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   CRF450R
  • Hot  39 replies
Forums
Photo

Need help with 2013 crf450 motor by souliog


Dirt Bike   Make / Model Specific   Honda   CRF450R
  • Hot  75 replies
 
x

Join Our Community!

Even if you don't want to post, registered members get access to tools that make finding & following the good stuff easier.

RegisterSign InClose
If you enjoyed reading about "" here in the ThumperTalk archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join ThumperTalk today!

The views and opinions expressed on this page are strictly those of the author, and have not been reviewed or approved by ThumperTalk.