about how much $ ?


18 replies to this topic
  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 26, 2010 - 03:46 AM

#1

bike: 98' yamaha wr400f

i just recently had an incident where my bike wasn't started properly. the kick starter ratchet stopper broke and so did the right crank casing and clutch cover, so now it is time to replace some parts.

my questions:

-should i buy the needed case and clutch cover(right side) or should i replace the entire bottom end?
if i do this, the first place im searching is ebay, which i already have. should i take the chance of getting parts that may possibly be not in the condition i would expect? *note- i'm only looking to buy ONLY what i need in order to get the bike running again. im already aware that i may need to spend more than expected but im not looking to buy extra parts unless i have to. the bike is supposebly bored .30 over, just thought i'd mention that just in case if that matters.

i took the broken pieces to the yamaha shop. the needed parts, if i find good used one myself i dont think they are that expensive (crank casing, clutch cover, new seals? ect on ebay). the labor is what im wanting to know about. i was told $500-600? from yamaha. i've heard that 4 stroke bikes were expensive but damn! is that correct? i was assuming they were giving me that price but would come out to be less only to surprise to make a costumer happy. if i remember correctly the labor price was $75/hr. basically i dont exactly know how much to spend after all the parts are bought and the work is done..........i need parts advice and prices and labor prices, please! i can guesstimate but i'd rather know go the best route.

Edited by 98wr400eff, December 26, 2010 - 06:14 AM.


  • Birdy426

Posted December 26, 2010 - 02:47 PM

#2

If the right crank case is really broken, you must replace both halves. They are machined as a matched set. What do you want to do with the bike? If you are going to keep it and ride it, most folks will tell you to spend a bit more than if you are going to put it back together and sell it. Don't want to piss in your punchbowl, but it's a pretty sure thing that if you are paying a shop to do the work, even replacing the bare minimum of parts (used case halves, seals and o-rings, gaskets, and rings), you will be spending far more than you would spend to buy another scooter in "equivalent" condition to yours before it broke. If you are going to "refresh" the moving parts, you will be spending a lot more.

As far as labor, at $75 bucks an hour, you're only talking 6-8 hours of shop time. If you are bringing them just a motor, that's about right, as they have to "split the cases", pull the crank and transmission, etc...if you are bringing them a bike with the motor in the frame, it's a pretty good deal. One thing I would be sure to discuss with them is warranty on their work. If you are bringing them used parts, chances are you will only get a "brake light warranty"...when they can't see your brake lights as you drive away, the warranty is done. If you are even reasonably mechanically inclined and have basic tools (and don't mind spending another 50 bucks or so on some pullers and such), you might want to think about downloading the manual (if you don't have one), and doing the work your self. It's really not that hard.

As far as should you replace the whole bottom end or just the cases, let us know your plans for the bike and we can do a better job of making recommendations...

  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 26, 2010 - 06:24 PM

#3

i only plan on trail riding and duning every once in a while i dont care to make it much faster or anything it has plenty of power for me the only thing i would change on the bike is the suspension its soft

  • Leardriver

Posted December 26, 2010 - 07:32 PM

#4

You have a crappy no-win choice to make. My vote is to cut your losses and look for another bike, since $1,000 will buy you a newer bike. Part out what you have left.

  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 26, 2010 - 11:05 PM

#5

You have a crappy no-win choice to make. My vote is to cut your losses and look for another bike, since $1,000 will buy you a newer bike. Part out what you have left.


i'd rather fix it im not getting rid of the bike

  • miweber929

Posted December 27, 2010 - 11:26 AM

#6

i'd rather fix it im not getting rid of the bike


Then you pretty much answered your own question.

Cheapest and easiest route is to get a complete running motor and swap it out yourself. Probably find something for $500; it'll be a crap shoot to see what you get, but try to buy locally and see what you may find. A YZ400F motor would get you running as well. Not the same power, but will run.

Otherwise get a complete, good lower end. Still ba about the same in the end and still a crap shoot.

Biggest question is do you know what broke? And can you fix it? If not, complete motor.

If you can, lower end and learn how to rebuild it. It's not impossible to do, find a friend and take your time.

Mike

  • Birdy426

Posted December 27, 2010 - 12:54 PM

#7

If you are going to hang on to the bike and ride it, you should consider rebuilding the crank and replacing all of the bearings...either than or pick up a whole bottom end and have the crank inspected by someone who knows what they are looking at if you are uncertain. If you go the used bottom end route, you are still taking your chances that it will last...

I expect that "30 over" means the bike has a big bore kit in it, which could either be a 420 kit using the stock 400 rod, or a 426 kit using the 426 rod. If you end up replacing the crank or rebuilding it, you need to be sure of what you have before you order parts. Biggest clue is the small end bearing diameter.

Lots of folks will tell you to cut your losses and buy something else...but then you are taking another chance on getting something worn out and ready to fail again. To put it in perspective, your friend "starting the bike wrong" probably didn't cause the failure...the fact that it's a 12 year old bike with lots of miles on it and lots of starts is more likely the cause...if you go thru it and replace what is worn, you will have a known reliable scooter. A crank rebuild with a rod kit will be around 250 bux, gaskets and seals another 75-100 bux. Bearings will cost another 150 if you source all that you can from a bearing supply house (some are Yamaha specific, though). You may find worn or damaged parts in the clutch, primary drive, or transmission that aren't related to the failure, but are related to age and use. No idea till you find 'em what they will cost. May want to get the cylinder measured for wear and taper, and measure the piston as well to be sure they are in spec. 400s had stainless valves, so they are probably good to go. Only you can trade cost for piece of mind when you are out in the boonies...you could go the cheap, buy just the cases, gaskets, o-rings and seals and put it together...it may last a good long time...or you could do a full on inspect, replace worn components and high probability of failure components, and have a scooter that you know won't leave you stranded...oh...either way, as long as you have it that far apart, replacing the cam chain is a must...

  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 27, 2010 - 08:28 PM

#8

Then you pretty much answered your own question.

Mike


i wanted to know the costs for labor and which route was the best for me using the original motor, not whether or not i should part the bike out for a new one because it has a less powerful engine or because its "old" and parts are worn out, i already know that. the obvious most wise idea is, replace everything with new parts instead of exactly what is needed with 426 parts. if i could i would but i'd have to explain why i dont have the $$ to do exactly that, and there is no need for that. the bike not being started properly is why the parts that broke, broke. not because of the age. so lets "assume" that was the cause. if i knew what combination of "parts" were used to make the bottom/top end i would have included that so i am assuming that the top end was "bored out" using factory parts and of course any other required parts need to do that, so thats all the detail i can provide as far as current engine mods. after reading this though the best option for me is to buy a used bottom end, as well as anything else that is needed to finish the "needed parts list". i planned on including in my thread, "i dont need any 426F engine combo suggestions" because i've read threads about these combonations to avoid repetition. i didnt want to come off rude so i didnt include that. my questions may seem vague but im getting answers to questions i didnt ask so sorry for any confusion. i was hoping that maybe a current or former employee from a yamaha or any other shop, here on TT or if you know one personally, could fill me in with their protocol for selling their motor vehicles just to make sure that they werent bsing me when they were telling me $500-$600 for labor. i can do the math, the reason i ask is because after speaking to different employees i had mixed responses on labor prices. all i wanted was verification of what they told me and a real price quote with the said parts that need to be replaced. these responses have gave me enough info so thanks for the advice i appreciate it!

Edited by 98wr400eff, December 27, 2010 - 08:56 PM.


  • Birdy426

Posted December 27, 2010 - 11:35 PM

#9

the bike not being started properly is why the parts that broke, broke. not because of the age. so lets "assume" that was the cause.

Whatever you gotta tell yourself and your buddy...but the truth is that you can start these things "wrong" till you break your leg and the starter (and cases) won't break unless something is worn beyond servicable limits.

if i knew what combination of "parts" were used to make the bottom/top end i would have included that so i am assuming that the top end was "bored out" using factory parts and of course any other required parts need to do that, so thats all the detail i can provide as far as current engine mods.


You need to figure it out before you piss your money away. These motors aren't small block chevys. You can't go down to Summit Racing and get .030 over pistons, and you can't take cylinders down to the local machine shop and bore them .030 over. They are Nicasil plated and honed to size. If the previous owner went overbore, he either did it using an aftermarket big bore kit for a 400, which would use the 400 connecting rod, or he did it using factory 426 parts which would use a 426 connecting rod (or even a combination of 426 rod and an aftermarket big bore kit). If he used 426 parts and you buy a 400 bottom end, you will have to rebuild the crank to install a 426 rod. Of course, if he told you he went ".30 over", he's probably full of crap anyway, and the motor is all stock.

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  • miweber929

Posted December 28, 2010 - 05:05 AM

#10

i wanted to know the costs for labor and which route was the best for me using the original motor, not whether or not i should part the bike out for a new one because it has a less powerful engine or because its "old" and parts are worn out, i already know that. the obvious most wise idea is, replace everything with new parts instead of exactly what is needed with 426 parts. if i could i would but i'd have to explain why i dont have the $$ to do exactly that, and there is no need for that. the bike not being started properly is why the parts that broke, broke. not because of the age. so lets "assume" that was the cause. if i knew what combination of "parts" were used to make the bottom/top end i would have included that so i am assuming that the top end was "bored out" using factory parts and of course any other required parts need to do that, so thats all the detail i can provide as far as current engine mods. after reading this though the best option for me is to buy a used bottom end, as well as anything else that is needed to finish the "needed parts list". i planned on including in my thread, "i dont need any 426F engine combo suggestions" because i've read threads about these combonations to avoid repetition. i didnt want to come off rude so i didnt include that. my questions may seem vague but im getting answers to questions i didnt ask so sorry for any confusion. i was hoping that maybe a current or former employee from a yamaha or any other shop, here on TT or if you know one personally, could fill me in with their protocol for selling their motor vehicles just to make sure that they werent bsing me when they were telling me $500-$600 for labor. i can do the math, the reason i ask is because after speaking to different employees i had mixed responses on labor prices. all i wanted was verification of what they told me and a real price quote with the said parts that need to be replaced. these responses have gave me enough info so thanks for the advice i appreciate it!


Anyone giving you a quote to rebuild an engine that is not already torn apart is bs-ing you already because there are about 500 things that can take a simple case swap to a complete teardown in no time. Labor rates vary by shop even if they are yamaha shops, and also by the part of the country you are in as well so asking what someone else paid really means nothing. Smaller indiependant shops are cheaper and typically better. You have a 12 year old bike with a cracked case from someone "kick starting it wrong" which is pretty much impossible unless there was something weakened beforehand. Someone suggested parting it already and you said you needed to fix it. So re-read what I wrote after I said you answered your own question; if you pay a shop and use new yamaha parts, you'll have more into it than a new bike.

Your quickest snd easiest route is to get a running complete motor and either rebuild your old one as you can yourself then sell your "spare" or simply let the shop do it and pay for whatever they say needs to be done. Once you open up an engine you'd be stupid to put it back together with worn parts. Just sayin'.

Mike

Edited by miweber929, December 28, 2010 - 09:52 AM.


  • Leardriver

Posted December 28, 2010 - 07:46 AM

#11

Good responses, all supporting my original suggestion to quit throwing good money after bad.
The bike has no value right now, and will never run again without a whole lot of money, double what it's worth. So, unless this is a priceless family heirloom, like dead grandpa's last bike, stop prolonging the agony.

  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 28, 2010 - 10:18 AM

#12

i just got the bike less than a month ago why would i get rid of it for a new one like you suggested? once the engine problem is fixed i'll be riding again on a perfect bike with nothing else wrong with it. just because it's a 98', to me, it is not worthless.

i mainly wanted prices and suggestions, which i finally have now. i decided im going to replace the bottom end with another wr/yz 400 bottom end and hope for the best as far as engine life. meanwhile i will build another setup for the future since i will be able to gather $ for that. as far as labor im not going to the yamaha shop i dont think. i can go to a trustworthy car tuner instead who will probably give me a lower price.

  • Birdy426

Posted December 28, 2010 - 10:52 AM

#13

Learn from our experiences...just because you only got the bike a month ago does not make it "perfect with nothing else wrong with it"...we've all been there, and we've all done that. And we've all learned our lessons. The reality is that the bike is almost 13 years old and you have no clue about its past history, how much it was or was not abused, and how well it was, or was not maintained.

I'm not trying to discourage you or question your decision, just want to help make sure you have considered all angles. ( I just dropped almost 2k into my roached 2001 WR motor rather than by something newer...some folks will say I made a poor decision, but the bike is plated and set up for me). Have you checked all of the suspension bearings for wear? Wheel bearings? Hubs for cracks? Condition of the chain and sprockets? All that stuff can be fixed if necessary, but you should know that for your decision before-hand. You should carefully assess the condition of the rest of the bike before you put a bunch of money in an e-bay motor. As far as having a car tuner do the work instead of a shop, unless you're getting a back door deal from someone, you're probably in for a shock there as well. Most tuners get about the same hourly rate as a motorcycle dealer, and if the guys aren't experienced with these motors, they aren't going to be as speedy. Add to that they will have to buy a few tools (clutch holder, narrow feeler gages, maybe a flywheel puller) and a shop manual, and you are probably looking at as much or more than the yami dealer would charge (and from the yami dealer you know the job will be done right). You may want to look to a local independent motorcycle shop, as their rates are usually (at least in Cali) 15-20 bux an hour less than the big boys, and they already have the tools and experience. Again, from many of our shared experiences, to buy a bottom end, pay someone to reassemble it into a motor, and slap it into your bike is kinda like playing Russian Roulette. The guy on e-bay is parting out his scooter for a reason...it just might be that it jumps out of 4th gear (or 5th, or the primary drive key is sheared off, or the flywheel key is sheared, or any of a hundred other failures). Without doing a teardown and inspection of what you buy, you are potentially wasting the money you pay someone to reassemble it. Not a big deal if you are doing the work yourself, as your time isn't worth anything (unless you are taking time off from a job to do it), but if you are paying someone, you are potentially throwing money out the window. The seals, o-rings and such that are required to split the cases for inspection are about 15 dollars worth of parts...money well spent...

  • Birdy426

Posted December 28, 2010 - 10:54 AM

#14

So, unless this is a priceless family heirloom, like dead grandpa's last bike,

or like a California bike with a plate!

  • 74dirtdown

Posted December 28, 2010 - 10:56 AM

#15

Although this thread was entertaining, it was also a little frusturating to read. You might be a little stubborn and having a difficult time seeing that all the responses are really trying to help you make the smartest choice. Even though the responses might not have answered your exact questions, I think the people that replied were also trying to offer you some "been there, done that," "chased the rabbit down the hole," experienced advice.

If you are still set on fixing it, then I would suggest you call three repair places, get a quote and go with the place you feel the best with. (sounded like you were questioning the shop) At this stage, you shouldn't be worried about spending money, because you seem to be set on fixing it, so pay what it costs and fix it.

Just don't expect that because this part is fixed, you have a trouble free bike. "once the engine problem is fixed i'll be riding again on a perfect bike with nothing else wrong with it." This is a classic example of throwing good money after bad. You might luck out... but you might not.

Now if you were a engine junkie like some of the people on here, I would say fix it yourself while you watch TV in your living room, but it doesn't sound like you are. Don't take that wrong, I am not either. I put gas in and hope my electric start works.

My last thing would be, keep a running tab on the stuff you pay for. That way at least when your done for some torture, you can search the classifieds for what that would have gotten you without any of the hassle.

Good luck man

  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 28, 2010 - 09:00 PM

#16

i understand all the responses and i do understand where you guys are coming from, thanks everyone really. im not trying to seem stubborn its just that i'd rather not spend money on parts/modifications unless i have to and obviously i should and i will because thats the best route in the long run. the problem(not really a problem) is, i ask a question then everyone wants to put in an opinion, which is fine but fail to answer my specific question(s), instead i get more broad answers because people want to be the first ones to provide the best most valuable information because they think thats the best for me. you guys have been there done that, i get that. obviously you guys/girls have more experience so i will take your advice and leave it at that. im not trying to challenge your knowledge vs. mine its just that i've already read threads regarding 400/426 engine combinations and i wanted to avoid repitition.

my plan was to replace what was wrong with it, keep everything oem, then have a bike to ride again. meanwhile i could build something on the side then swap the better engine later. i dont really care too much for 426 parts because the worst that i've read about wr400s is that the rods go out. but thats after how many hrs/years of abuse? to me thats not much to worry about thats why i didnt mind buying a bottom end that i felt was in good condition plus im not a power junkie im happy with the power the bike has i just want this bike running again.

first, i will have the engine inspected like suggested then i will decide if i should take the "bottom end" chance. i dont have years and years of experience so my bike wont be abused once it is running again since im not so hardcore on the throttle plus i've only owned a quad and one tiny 125L dirtbike, 5 years ago so i still need a lot more time on the bike before i do anything crazy. i've only ridden the wr400f once, sadly. as far as i know though the engine on these 1998 wr400s are reliable so i dont mind keeping everything original although if i had the money i would invest in aftermarket parts. just pretend im a "baller on a budget." even then i want to do things right thats why this thread exists!

and what i meant by "once the engine problem is fixed i'll be riding again on a perfect bike with nothing else wrong with it" is that the ENGINE can be fixed its not a huge deal, other than that the rest of the bike is in good condition so its not worth it for me to part it out just to get a new one. i simply cannot afford to do that as much as i'd rather have a newer bike, even if i parted it out because once parts break on that newer bike thats more money at the end of the day. i feel much better knowing that im spending less money on 98-2000 parts because of the year. its all in perspective in my opinion as far as what bike is best. to me thats like telling a guy with a geo prism to sell his ride for a bmw because a bmw is "better." thats probably a horrible example but my point is both are great mechanically, hypothetically speaking and one person might like the fact that they dont have to spend much money fixing a Geo after the engine blows vs a bmw with a blown motor, so they'd rather own a Geo. another may be more fortunate and can afford to fix the bmw so its no big deal for that person. basically i like the bike so i'm keeping it i dont care about its age i already know once everything is fixed i will have a bulletproof bike.

also, i mention that the bike wasnt started properly and it seems like i HAVE to explain how that happened instead you guys assume it was the age and disregard what i tell you about improper starting like i must explain. so yes, things started to wear and initially i believed it was the "torsion(return) spring" that was starting go out. instead of taking the bike to the shop after we thought THAT was problem my friend kicked it over one last time untill the "stopper" and the "ratchet wheel guide" broke. because of that the right casing and clutch cover managed to break at the same time. not one time was the decompression lever used when attempting to start the bike after stomping on the kick start lever. my friend who is 6' 4" used to own a yz125 and it's obviously not the same routine when firing both bikes up. he thought he was showing me the right way because thats how he learned, when really he had never learned "the right way" on this particular bike period. put it this way, when i first got the bike it started the first kick, idled fine, i rode it around i hauled ass. i let my friend use, he kills the bike and could not figure out how to start it. after "trying" to figure out how, he manages to do all that. of course i didnt know any better or else that wouldnt have happened. he simply didnt know how to start it at all. there is a certain way to start the bike and my friend could not exaplain how to, after parts broke. he tried arguing that you dont need the decompression lever and that it shouldnt have happened. it was my fault for letting him touch it i learned my lesson i should have figured out how to start it myself. so THAT my friends is how the parts broke. im open to reality checks so feel free to tell me that im wrong. either way he did break my bike lol but its going to be fixed so im not angry it could have been worst i think

Edited by 98wr400eff, December 30, 2010 - 06:21 AM.


  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 28, 2010 - 09:07 PM

#17

and please accept my apology for typing so damn much, some times its hard to get my point across so sorry for any inconvenience!

  • Birdy426

Posted December 28, 2010 - 10:52 PM

#18

the problem(not really a problem) is, i ask a question then everyone wants to put in an opinion, which is fine but fail to answer my specific question(s)


So, what specific questions weren't answered? Maybe we missed them...I think we got the reasonableness of the $500-500 quote from the dealer covered...and we provided our opinions of which route was best for you (which is what you asked of us)...if we missed anything, post it up and we'll try to answer...

  • uppinsmoke

Posted December 29, 2010 - 01:36 AM

#19

So, what specific questions weren't answered? Maybe we missed them...I think we got the reasonableness of the $500-500 quote from the dealer covered...and we provided our opinions of which route was best for you (which is what you asked of us)...if we missed anything, post it up and we'll try to answer...


right and right, everything was covered. im happy with all the responses, thanks guys i appreciate your help!

Edited by 98wr400eff, December 29, 2010 - 03:33 AM.





 
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