2010 Black oil / Hard to start


31 replies to this topic
  • BlakJak

Posted December 13, 2010 - 10:02 AM

#1

Valves are within spec, low hours on OEM top end, stock mapping, engine ice, (coolant level never changes) fresh OEM clutch. No matter what oil I use, after as little as a 30 min ride, the oil is black and very thin. Its also a bitch to start when the motor is warm / hot. I've used the starting drill with a lil throttle and the choke pulled and it's on average 10-15 kicks! After it sits for a few minutes, then it's back to 1-3 kicks, tops.
Heat strips are on order.
Ideas?

  • condor74

Posted December 13, 2010 - 11:08 AM

#2

If your. Oil is turning black very quickly I would suspect the rings are not sealing well. Blow by on the rings will cause the black oil and hard starting. It is a place to start looking.

  • BlakJak

Posted December 13, 2010 - 11:23 AM

#3

I'm tearing into it in the am.
Seems like a heat issue and was wondering if anyone else had similar probs.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 13, 2010 - 11:30 AM

#4

Fuel in the oil will also cause the black oil, and has been an issue with operating the engine in low temperatures. Search the forum for 'fuel/gas in oil, low temps".

Some oils just turn black fast, too. I really doubt it's your rings.

  • tech24

Posted December 13, 2010 - 12:10 PM

#5

Can't help with the oil deal but you'd be the first I've heard of any engine mechanical problems. I use aimsoil and its fairly clean always. I can say I have ridden in cold temps and super rich and still no issues as far as oil contamination but its possible although I see you live in Texas.

As far as starting it sounds like it may be flooding. Not sure your exact technique but this works for me:

cold engine hasn't ran for a while:
Bike in neutral (very important), 3 slow kicks (to charge capicitor), and a few normal kicks for the bottom of compression stroke and its running. Never more than 4 kicks

hot engine: option 1 (Neutral or in gear, N easier) pull out "cold start" knob and 1 kick from bottom of comp stroke

option 2 N or in gear, slightly crack throttle and do not pull out CS knob. I mean slightly and 1 kick from bottom of comp stroke.

Don't go bashing away on the kick starter or the engine will flood easily and if this happens hold throttle all the way open which puts ecu in clear flood mode and kick engine over slowly 10 times and retry

Works everytime these ways for me!

  • BlakJak

Posted December 13, 2010 - 12:13 PM

#6

Thanks gray, I read those posts about the temp but I'm in TX and the so far the coldest I've ridden is 50 degrees.
I don't suspect rings either as there is zero smoking.
Agree about the oil; one of the reasons I stopped using Rotella. Temp strips are on order and I'll get a good look at valves and cylinder in the am.

  • brentn

Posted December 13, 2010 - 12:17 PM

#7

I was telling him through PM that my bike also turns the oil black pretty quick, summer or winter don't matter.

Was telling him that it was pretty normal and it's just suspending the carbon deposits but it is still doing it's job to lubricate properly. I use Castrol GTX 10W40.

  • BlakJak

Posted December 13, 2010 - 12:19 PM

#8

Can't help with the oil deal but you'd be the first I've heard of any engine mechanical problems. I use aimsoil and its fairly clean always. I can say I have ridden in cold temps and super rich and still no issues as far as oil contamination but its possible although I see you live in Texas.

As far as starting it sounds like it may be flooding. Not sure your exact technique but this works for me:

cold engine hasn't ran for a while:
Bike in neutral (very important), 3 slow kicks (to charge capicitor), and a few normal kicks for the bottom of compression stroke and its running. Never more than 4 kicks

hot engine: option 1 (Neutral or in gear, N easier) pull out "cold start" knob and 1 kick from bottom of comp stroke

option 2 N or in gear, slightly crack throttle and do not pull out CS knob. I mean slightly and 1 kick from bottom of comp stroke.

Don't go bashing away on the kick starter or the engine will flood easily and if this happens hold throttle all the way open which puts ecu in clear flood mode and kick engine over slowly 10 times and retry

Works everytime these ways for me!


Thanks for the tips. I'll try those too. Zero issues when cold. I'm doing the slight throttle crack and vary use of the CS knob; its only when hot that I have an issue. I've used Amsoil and it too is black and thin after a short time. I've had 426's, 250f's and 450's; this is the only one that's had either issue. :thumbsup:

  • tech24

Posted December 13, 2010 - 12:23 PM

#9

Thanks for the tips. I'll try those too. Zero issues when cold. I'm doing the slight throttle crack and vary use of the CS knob; its only when hot that I have an issue. I've used Amsoil and it too is black and thin after a short time. I've had 426's, 250f's and 450's; this is the only one that's had either issue. :thumbsup:


Yeah hot starting is a pain. I finally got used to what it wants and can get it to fire on demand 90% of the time. Its picky on how to start it and does flood easily but not so bad once you get used to it as it sure is different than other bikes.

  • cambo au

Posted December 13, 2010 - 11:54 PM

#10

be great if they made a after market hot start i can get mine going always first kick when hot with the button out but its sucks without it

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  • tech24

Posted December 14, 2010 - 05:05 AM

#11

be great if they made a after market hot start i can get mine going always first kick when hot with the button out but its sucks without it


I hear ya, me and brentn have been discussing a hot start cable setup for that damn knob but not quite sure how to do it and still ne able to adjust idle.

  • grayracer513

Posted December 14, 2010 - 07:59 AM

#12

The obvious difficulty in producing any kind of cable operator for the cold start valve is that it doubles as the idle adjuster, like the flat slide CR carbs for two-strokes. What the CSV is is actually an air valve, and unlike a starting enrichment valve like an FCR has, it adds no fuel, only air.

So then, how is that useful for starting cold? Because the ECU responds to the extra air by adding fuel. How much additional depends on temperature. The same is actually true in starting a hot or warmed up engine. Unlike a carb, which needs to have air flowing to cause fuel flow, an EFI system will inject fuel when it's told to, so opening the throttle a little does not necessarily mean that the cranking mixture will be leaned out by the extra air. Usually, the squirt is increased to match the throttle opening up to a certain point. If the throttle is opened beyond that, standard practice is that the unit goes into a "clear flood mode", in which no fuel is injected so that the flooded condition can be cleared out.

This somewhat generalized look at things is probably why the gentleman in another thread had success with making his bike start better by adding to the base idle fuel.

I do think the EFI bikes are going to run better under a wider range of circumstances with a thermostat added.

  • brentn

Posted December 14, 2010 - 08:04 AM

#13

So then, how is that useful for starting cold? Because the ECU responds to the extra air by adding fuel.


How does the ecu know that extra air is entering the system?
There is no o2 sensor to check air fuel, there is no mass air flow sensor to check volume of air, and the CSV bypasses the butterfly valve in which the TPS is not used. Is the CSV valve an electronic switch as well, telling the ECU that it is on?

  • grayracer513

Posted December 14, 2010 - 09:07 AM

#14

I would imagine that the combination of the MAP, along with Baro, Tach, and TPS would do it.

  • BlakJak

Posted December 14, 2010 - 12:40 PM

#15

Findings after inspection:

valves - perfect
timing - perfect
cylinder - smooth as butter
no signs of excessive heat anywhere
plug - soaking wet and dark
top of piston - spoogey

GYTR tuner on order

  • tech24

Posted December 14, 2010 - 01:59 PM

#16

I'm wondering if you got a faulty coolant temp sensor or something. And excessive rich condition could cause some of what your concerned with. I would also think cold wheather riding but again you live in texas. The tuner has data and can read trouble codes so you can check all that when you get it. Good luck!

  • BlakJak

Posted December 14, 2010 - 05:54 PM

#17

I'm wondering if you got a faulty coolant temp sensor or something. And excessive rich condition could cause some of what your concerned with. I would also think cold wheather riding but again you live in texas. The tuner has data and can read trouble codes so you can check all that when you get it. Good luck!


Yep, something is definitely askew :thumbsup:
I appreciate the help and will report back on my findings.

  • brentn

Posted December 15, 2010 - 11:30 AM

#18

Should report an error code if it is not reading right.

Pretty sure I saw a way to test the sensor via voltage meter in the service manual. Might want to take a look now instead of waiting for the tuner to check for a code.

  • tech24

Posted December 15, 2010 - 11:40 AM

#19

Should report an error code if it is not reading right.

Pretty sure I saw a way to test the sensor via voltage meter in the service manual. Might want to take a look now instead of waiting for the tuner to check for a code.


Haven't looked but yeah should be some kind of voltage @ temp spec. I wasn't think about that I'm too used to reading it on a screen. But if may or may not set a code. The only way the ecu can know its failed if voltage goes full high idicating an open or full low indiating a short but an failure in between from an inaccurate sensor it will just think its that temp. Of course it could compare air temp to coolant temp on startup but not sure if it has that diagnostic capability.

  • thestuz

Posted December 16, 2010 - 10:24 PM

#20

um...... dont suppose its from your clutch slipping/ over heating???





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