Loud Bikes Take II - - - - - A civil Discussion Please



61 replies to this topic
  • John_Lorenz

Posted July 11, 2003 - 04:27 AM

#1

I have been reading post after post, with regards to the sound issue. I find myself very interested in the broad responses to this issue. I was reading in this months BRC mag with Bill Darts comments on the Less Sound = More Ground.

Although I do not agree in Context with the Less Sound = More Ground "Myth". I do agree with Bill Dart, Malcolm Smith and others on the reality of the situation. Malcolm in my opinion is a man of few words and what he says on this issue does carry some merit and power in our industry. I do not agree with some of the BRC, AMA and C.O.R.V.A decisions but I also do not agree with many issues my Representatives endorse, no matter in the political arena or in the motorcycle arena. Some decisions are just bad. I would like to just say I whole hearted agree with the article in this months BRC mag written by Bill Dart. I will not add all that was said if anyone would like the article, I will be glad to scan and send it to you. But here is the gist of the article.

Bill Dart -- BRC Mag
If you are thinking of buying an aftermarket exhaust system, you need to think hard about which one to buy. Not only should it improve performance and/or reduce weight, it should comply with the 96 db level. Not only will this keep you in compliance if or when a national sound standard is implemented, it is the right thing to do. Make sure your friends do the right thing too. If we all make an effort with our own equipment, and reach out to those we hear are too loud, we can make a difference. Our recreation future may well depend on it



I hope this will not start a fire storm, please think about this for a minute. I do not give any credit to the entire article with just one quote, but honestly to me it is the right thing. I have read the "IT IS MY RIGHT" I disagree with that It is not MY RIGHT to have a loud bike, it is my right to be a responsible rider, and the times we are in now enforces this issue right to our door steps.

This is not 20 years ago, this is now and things change and so must we. I totally understand the reasoning that the less sound is just a smoking mirror, I agree with that. But We need to start realizing that as our society grows it encroaches on the areas we rode in 20 years ago. That is progress unfortunately, eventually time catches up.

Last I want to ask the mods or Steve and Bryan to add this poll for all. Just to add, I belong to AMA and BRC just sent my membership to CORVA

Do you belong to any one or more
1: AMA -- Member
2: Blue Ribbon Coalition -- Member
3: C.O.R.V.A. -- Member
4: AMA, Blue Ribbon -- Member
5: AMA, Blue Ribbon, Corva -- Member
6: AMA, Blue Ribbon,Local Area/state Org -- Member
7: I am not a member of anything I don't care

Blue Ribbon Coalition
C.O.R.V.A Web Site

  • The_Blue_One

Posted July 11, 2003 - 05:17 AM

#2

<FORM METHOD=POST ACTION="http://www.thumpertalk.com/forum/dopoll.php"><INPUT TYPE=HIDDEN NAME="pollname" VALUE="1057929440The_Blue_One">


Do you belong to any one or more
<input type="radio" name="option" value="1" />AMA -- Member
<input type="radio" name="option" value="2" />Blue Ribbon Coalition -- Member
<input type="radio" name="option" value="3" />C.O.R.V.A. -- Member
<input type="radio" name="option" value="4" />AMA, Blue Ribbon -- Member
<input type="radio" name="option" value="5" />AMA, Blue Ribbon, Corva -- Member
<input type="radio" name="option" value="6" />AMA, Blue Ribbon,Local Area/state Org -- Member
<input type="radio" name="option" value="7" />I am not a member of anything I don't care
<INPUT TYPE=Submit NAME=Submit VALUE="Submit vote" class="buttons"></form>


See if this works.Just as a FYI polling should be available to all members.

  • ddialogue

Posted July 11, 2003 - 05:20 AM

#3

Please add another line to this poll:
8. I am not a member of anything but I DO care! :)

  • daytripper63

Posted July 11, 2003 - 07:39 AM

#4

Everyone needs to realize until EVERYONE learns to be courteous when riding on public lands and be aware of their surroundings (This means the people camping, hiking,fishing,jeeping, etc...) I ride everywhere and i cant count the number of times i slow down to not kick up dust or pose a threat when passing others enjoying public lands as well, and i almost get ran over or hit by other riders with no patience or concern for others. Sometimes the QUIET bikes are more dangerous than the loud cause you dont here them coming...
Years ago when i was jeeping on rubicon trail i got out to look at a tough spot on trail and did not here a quiet bike coming up from behind FAST and he ran up my leg and across my back. (Oh what a feeling!!!) luckily i am not a tree hugger and complained..

Maybe this is a good complaint about QUIET bikes?

  • wrkaholic

Posted July 11, 2003 - 08:38 AM

#5

Personally, I can only speak for Southern California. For every riding place that I have ridden here, noise was never the issue. The riding places are fairly big and remote. Hungry Valley/Gorman is in the middle of the grapevine, Ocotillo is in the middle of the desert, California city is in the middle of the high desert, etc... . Maybe, you could site Rowher Flats as being close to housing, but, the way the mountains surround it, you cannot hear any bikes when you leave the riding area and get to the pavement.

IMO, The biggest issue in California is environmental damage. This is what you always hear about. They are always "roping off" part of a riding area because of too much environmental damage. IMO, in California, this will be our undoing, not noise.

  • endurodog

Posted July 11, 2003 - 11:22 AM

#6

I'll make one post on this and then let it go, I have made most of my points in other post on the topic.

There are more orginzations to belong to than listed in the poll that contribute to off road issues, I contribute to 2 that are not listed.

Bill Dart is lost. He says no one needs more power, how does he know where I ride. Do I ride in sand dunes, at altitude, in sandwashes, hill climbs. If that logic is followed can't someone say no one needs more power than a 125 or just stay on a 2 strokes that are quiter than a 4 stroke.

Yes it is the responsiblity of us all to stay as quite as is reasonably possible.

Now for the biggest lie told by Bill Dart "less sound = More ground". I have asked over and over and the closest anyone can come on this one is an area in California that sound reduction is part "PART" of the solution. Making our bikes quiter won't open ground that is lost or never been opened before.

We need an overall plan, with reasonable sound limits, whats reasonable?? and need to understand even with this those that are against us will still be against us. We need to try and get along with other users of the forest, but the flip of that is they need to do the same.

  • John_Lorenz

Posted July 11, 2003 - 11:50 AM

#7

Endurodog
Great post thank you. I totally understand and agree. I think my post clearly states the less sound is a myth. The Poll has an area for Local/State Orgs. I placed that there because I am not privy to all of the local agencies in different states. There are obviously more, but my point on the poll was to see just what we have out there and who is supporting who. In my opinion, if you ride anything with wheels in the dirt you should be a member of some organization that supports and helps protect that right. Not doing so in my opinion again is no different then being a welfare recipient, leaching off the backs of others.

I don't agree with Bill Dart on allot of things but his point and the points that many leaders like Malcolm have made and said is valid. I think Dart has become to political in his views and swings to the enemies side to many times.

  • Talonboy

Posted July 11, 2003 - 02:11 PM

#8

How come the factory can make a quiet pipe and make good power, and is light for a street bike, but they can't for most dirt bikes? The only stock one that I can think of is on a KTM 520exc. How come most aftermarket street pipes are way louder than stock, but make very little improvement in power. I would like to ride a quiet bike that makes good power and is light weight. :)

  • lipskid

Posted July 11, 2003 - 03:27 PM

#9

Lets face it, there are more people using public lands than ever before, both motorized and non-motorized. As only one segment(and a minority at that), we have to do our best to get along with other users. If you don't care if your obnoxiously loud bike rings the ears of everyone you pass, then you can't expect them to give two cents about your right to be there. So where do we draw the line? Well, apparently the line has been drawn for us @ 96db. I personally don't believe this is unreasonable. KTM and the aftermarket are already proving that the technology is there to comply with this limit AND produce good performance. If we as a group do our best to be courtious to others, we reduce the ammunition they have to use against us.

No, I dont believe that this is the end to our problems. In fact I expect it won't be long before we start hearing that our 96db pipes are to loud. But if we do our part, the less credibilty our enemies have when enough still aint good enough. We will always have enemies, but if we can reduce their numbers(or at least don't go out of our way to add to them), take away their credibility, and most importantly, organize against them, we will at least have a fighting chance. And it will be a long and uphill fight. These people really do believe(as wrong as they are) that they are saving the world, and they have a lot of time and money.

No, a quiet pipe may not make as much power as a loud one(I think the new generation pipes like the Pro Cirquit 496 I just mounted are fast closing the gap),but I believe at some point we have to make a compromise. After all, the hiker, biker, horseman, etc. have a right to enjoy the outdoors also.

In a perfect world, we would always have fresh single track, new knobbies, golf courses around the world would be maintained for our enjoyment, and THEY would realise that the highway that so conveniently bisects wildlife habitat for them to pilot there new SUV in comfort en route to a trail(possibly pioneered by ,gasp, motorcyclists)they read about printed on paper made from tree's so they can look so dashing in their new hiking boots assembled by 8 year olds in some third world sweat shop along with just about every other aspect of their daily lives all conspire to make their emotionally driven Walt Disney but oh so fashionable superior morality seem just a little bit ludicrous and they would lighten up.Whew.

But it's not a perfect world, so they're just going to have to learn to get along. And so are we.

Of course the above ramblings are just my personal opinions, and like :), everybody has one. :D

  • YAMAKAZE

Posted July 11, 2003 - 04:17 PM

#10

Bill Dart is nothing more than a puppet for the Green Machine. The crap that comes out of his mouth is enough to fill a major cities landfill.

Glad he is not my rep....

Bonzai :)

Visit the ThumperTalk Store for the lowest prices on motorcycle / ATV parts and accessories - Guaranteed
  • FTD

Posted July 11, 2003 - 08:04 PM

#11

In "Loud Bikes I" I stated that I would try my never used quiet cap to see if I liked it to "be active." I hated this proposition to you all. I rode last night, in the woods, and will never put the loud cap back on, in the woods. The quiet cap is awesome!!! I have NEVER had my bike almost come out of my hands. It was loose as a goose and the bike was incredible on the trail with the quiet cap. It was pulling the front end up with my 240# ass on the tank in 3rd like it has never done. I could hear the engine for once. :) I have to admit... I should of tried it before I gave my impression towards it.
Be careful... you won't hear me coming now. :D
Hoss

  • AkRider

Posted July 11, 2003 - 09:14 PM

#12

It doesn't matter what we do. The greenies are always going to be against us. They won't be satisfied until there are no bikes at all. Some of them even hate mountian bikes as much as dirt bikes. I do agree that we all need to join a group that is going to fight for our rights. We also all need to do are part to promote this sport to the general public. We are never going to win over the greenies, but we can win over most people if we act and ride reasonably aroud others.

  • N7SLC

Posted July 12, 2003 - 01:24 PM

#13

Whether or not you believe the "Less Sound = More Ground "Myth"" doesn't matter. The fact is that with the every increasing popularity of 4-strokes the riding areas are getting much noisier. I for one, am glad to have a quiet bike. My bro, DDialogue , mentioned that the noise level from his 450 was very fatiging and that's why he installed the quiet insert.

I for one believe that sound levels are a big part of why we're losing riding areas. We all need to get involved and be responsible!

Dan Dialogue

Another DDialogue... :)



Ya' all might as well dual-sport your machines. They way things are going there won't be anyplace to ride but on the street.

  • John_Lorenz

Posted July 13, 2003 - 03:41 AM

#14

N7SLC
I agree with that and since you used my quote Less sound = more ground Myth, I will respond.

The Myth is that we are duped into thinking that sound, is the "ONE AND ONLY" reason. The Myth is that 96db is the fix, the myth is that sound is the Main Issue in ALL CIRCLES of environmentalist groups or whatever.

I for one believe that Less Sound = Keep Current Ground (For the time being). They will never re-open the Hundreds if not thousands of acres that have been closed already because of "SOUND" Compliance.

Yellow stone is a perfect example of the ongoing fight, you think for a minute that if all them snow-mobile-rs have a 96 or less pipe that all will be well?

Not a chance, the real issue is that these extreme groups do not want even hikers in Yellow stone, the Sound is a Myth in the pretense to how the opposition is playing that hand.

Plus I will add this. If we as a community of riders stay split on this issue we loose they win. The future of our sport is at hand, we must understand and educate not just ourselves FIRST, but or neighbors, co-workers and acquaintances on these issues.

  • Hick

Posted July 13, 2003 - 09:04 AM

#15

My take:

Bill Dart is a tool. If I see him anywhere near my state legislature I'll tackle him, and then sit on him until he promises not to advocate Db limit legislation.

He may have his heart in the right place, but the CA law he favored is bad legislation, plain and simple. It is just another tool for the anti-access groups to hit riders over the head with. If I'm a Ranger and I want to "fail" your bike that is right at the 96 Db I can easily do so, whether you are really in compliance or not.

I shouldn't be so hard on Mr. Dart. Maybe he isn't a tool. It could be that he is just stupid. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.


Also, where are these 96 Db pipes he is talking about? He must not own or ride any motocross bikes.

  • N7SLC

Posted July 13, 2003 - 01:03 PM

#16

The sad thing is that it seems(to me anyway) really easy for environmentalists to get areas closed...once they're closed, they're gone forever. :)

The Denver Post had a disturbing article a month or so ago about certain areas in Moab being closed to not just motorized vehicles, but to everyone including mtn bikes, hikers and campers. Now, there hasn't been any evidence yet that those areas in Moab will be closed, but it's not too early to start now!

I have sent correspondence to all of my gov't reps stating my displeasure with the closure of American Fork Canyon and I have made mentions about Moab.

Get out your pens guys and get writin'!

Tell the folks in Washington HOW you feel and let them KNOW that you vote!

Dan

  • Brian_in_Long_Beach

Posted July 13, 2003 - 07:29 PM

#17

My take:
He may have his heart in the right place, but the CA law he favored is bad legislation, plain and simple..... If I'm a Ranger and I want to "fail" your bike that is right at the 96 Db I can easily do so, whether you are really in compliance or not.


Hick - can you explain these two statements please? Being a Californian subject to the 96dB limit I don't think it's bad legislation. The one problem I do have with the legislation is that I know a bit more about sound measurement than the average joe so I know that the result is too dependendant upon the the environmental conditions. Regarding the ranger 'failing a you because he wants to' if I'm not mistaken there is a +/- 2 dB tolerance on the testing. It is our job to know the rules about how the sound test is to be conducted and make sure that Mr. Ranger is following the rules. Personally, I haven't met any rangers that were 'out to get me' - maybe I'm just lucky. Of course it could be because my bike meets the 96dB limit (has since it was new) and I get waved thru sound tests.

Also, where are these 96 Db pipes he is talking about? He must not own or ride any motocross bikes.


What's a stock CR250 measure when properly tested? I believe Bill Dart's position is that an extra .5 hp at 8000rpm isn't worth a 3 dB increase across the entire operating range - not that everybody should ride a 125.

Brian

  • Hick

Posted July 14, 2003 - 07:15 AM

#18

It is our job to know the rules about how the sound test is to be conducted and make sure that Mr. Ranger is following the rules.



Good point. My point: if the Ranger disagrees with you, who wins that argument? It is bad legislation because it puts the onus on the operator, and the determination up to a single Ranger. They could have set up a certification program for pipes, much like the USFS Spark Arrestor certification. Surely somebody thought of that.



What's a stock CR250 measure when properly tested? I believe Bill Dart's position is that an extra .5 hp at 8000rpm isn't worth a 3 dB increase across the entire operating range - not that everybody should ride a 125.


I should have been more specific and said a four stroke motocross bike. I guarantee you that to get a YZF or CRF to 96 Db is going to sacrifice a hell of a lot more than .5 HP. Try 4 or 5.

98 or 99 Db is a much more reasonable output. These aren't #@$% passenger cars...

  • Hick

Posted July 14, 2003 - 07:24 AM

#19

I was told most two stroke 250 MX bikes are around 98 Db.

  • John_Lorenz

Posted July 14, 2003 - 07:33 AM

#20

I find the Poll Stats so far kind of alarming here they are

[*]Membership Stats
[*]AMA -- Member 9 or 34% of Thumpertalk
[*]Blue Ribbon Coalition -- Member 8 or 30% of Thumpertalk
[*]C.O.R.V.A. -- Member 0 or 0% of Thumpertalk
[*]AMA, Blue Ribbon -- Member 1 or 03% of Thumpertalk
[*]AMA, Blue Ribbon, Corva -- Member 2 or 07% of Thumpertalk
[*]AMA, Blue Ribbon,Local Area/state Org -- Member 2 or 07% of Thumpertalk
[*]I am not a member of anything I don't care 4 or 15% of Thumpertalk

If the average stays true, that out of 20k members this would mean that approximately 3000 members, simply do not care. But on the other hand I am surprised of the outcome of the Higher percentage of Memberships. This also brings up a good point on Education or lack of it, on the Land / Sound issues we face.




 
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