High Silicon in sample = bad news


16 replies to this topic
  • davcon

Posted July 07, 2010 - 07:50 PM

#1

Just for grins, I tried Amsoil and sent a sample in to Blackstone. Got the results today. The good news is that the oil held up after 11 hours. The bad news was it was high in silicon. Doing a little research and found out silicon sort of equals silica which equals SAND! Pulled the air filter and found dust in the intake! Arrrgh :) Going to go back to my old habit of using grease on the box/filter connection. Hope that works.
Posted Image

  • Steel Panther

Posted July 07, 2010 - 10:25 PM

#2

amsoil is great stuff, glad to see at 11hours its still good.
what filter and oil are you using and how often are you cleaning it?

  • davcon

Posted July 08, 2010 - 04:53 AM

#3

Using the stock filter with Bel-Ray filter oil. Have 2 filters and usually have a clean one ready to go. Clean the filter every ride or other ride (2 to 4 hours) depending on conditions. From now on, I'm going to change every ride, saturate that sucker in oil and coat the filter/box seal area with grease.

  • grayracer513

Posted July 08, 2010 - 06:34 AM

#4

Air filters are CRITICAL here in the west. CRITICAL.

It is always important to run a fresh filter for every ride day whenever possible, and to thoroughly coat the entire bulk of the foam with oil (not plug it up with oil, but coat it) in order for it to be effective. Even at that, the dust out here is unbelievably fine and at times, thick, and even the best filter/oil combos can't always stop all of it.

I really don't think that greasing/not greasing has anything to do with it. I don't use grease, and have seen no evidence that any dirt ever gets through at the flange.

Still, I don't recall the silicon ever being an issue with any of my UOA's. You sure there's no sealers involved?

  • Swiss_Dirtrider

Posted July 08, 2010 - 07:31 AM

#5

Air filters are CRITICAL here in the west. CRITICAL.
Still, I don't recall the silicon ever being an issue with any of my UOA's. You sure there's no sealers involved?


i'm also wondering. how should dust from the intake reach the engine-oil?

  • grayracer513

Posted July 08, 2010 - 08:14 AM

#6

Past the rings. That goes on the "not good" side of the ledger, if you're keeping track.

IMO, it would take a pretty significant amount of dust getting past the filter to end up with 30 ppm of silicon in the oil. I don't think that what most people would call a "light film" of dust on the interior of the air boot would be enough to do that. At least, it hasn't in my case that has ever shown up on a UOA. It doesn't mean it shouldn't be looked at and steps taken to reduce the chance of it, though.

  • jratcliffe3

Posted July 08, 2010 - 03:51 PM

#7

Sure there is not silicon in Amsoil to start with?

Silicon is used in many oil types as an antifoaming additive. As an additive, silicon is used in engine, gear, circulating and other types of oils. The consistent variable in the use of silicon is the amount in the new oil.

Oil manufacturers will use amounts of silicon based on different types of oil.

Otherwise, have you ever used any silicon sealant on the engine? Since the metal levels are OK, I wouldn't worry too much - if sand/dust were getting into the oil, you would expect higher than normal metals.

http://www.machinery...icon-oil-source

makes pretty interesting reading.

  • grayracer513

Posted July 08, 2010 - 03:56 PM

#8

I wouldn't worry too much - if sand/dust were getting into the oil, you would expect higher than normal metals.


True.

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  • Steel Panther

Posted July 08, 2010 - 03:59 PM

#9

yea I dont see anything getting past the flange area of the filter if the cage is bolted down tight and the filter is under it.

  • grayracer513

Posted July 08, 2010 - 04:07 PM

#10

The thing is that the cage bolts down against its center pin, not against it's edge. The lip of the filter is clamped, but not as far as possible. It only crushes to about 3mm.

But if the lip is oiled the same as the rest of the element, there's no reason to expect dust to get past there any more than anywhere else.

  • Swiss_Dirtrider

Posted July 09, 2010 - 01:07 AM

#11

there is no centerpin on the '10 cage. So the filter is clamped down better then in other airboxes, in my opinion.

  • davcon

Posted July 09, 2010 - 05:46 AM

#12

Air filters are CRITICAL here in the west. CRITICAL.

It is always important to run a fresh filter for every ride day whenever possible, and to thoroughly coat the entire bulk of the foam with oil (not plug it up with oil, but coat it) in order for it to be effective. Even at that, the dust out here is unbelievably fine and at times, thick, and even the best filter/oil combos can't always stop all of it.

I really don't think that greasing/not greasing has anything to do with it. I don't use grease, and have seen no evidence that any dirt ever gets through at the flange.

Still, I don't recall the silicon ever being an issue with any of my UOA's. You sure there's no sealers involved?


I've only opened the engine for valve adjustments and a heavier flywheel. On the FW install, I used Hondabond 4 on the stator connection area but just a dab and that was 15 mons ago. Gray :banana:, what filter are you running, whats your filter oiling procedure and what oil do you use?


Sure there is not silicon in Amsoil to start with?

Silicon is used in many oil types as an antifoaming additive. As an additive, silicon is used in engine, gear, circulating and other types of oils. The consistent variable in the use of silicon is the amount in the new oil.

Oil manufacturers will use amounts of silicon based on different types of oil.

Otherwise, have you ever used any silicon sealant on the engine? Since the metal levels are OK, I wouldn't worry too much - if sand/dust were getting into the oil, you would expect higher than normal metals.

http://www.machinery...icon-oil-source

makes pretty interesting reading.


Thanks for the positive thoughts :). While I did see dust in the outer reaches of the airbox, it wasnt throughout. Having said that, this was a good wake up call to pay more attention to my air filter maintenance. Hey...maybe a spec of dirt dropped into the bottle while I was holding it under the drainplug.....

  • gonefishing

Posted July 09, 2010 - 06:03 AM

#13

Silicon = Dirt. I see a minimum of 3 oil samples a day - Diesel engine mechanic and manager of a large fleet of trucks and tractors. Amsiol had nothing to do with it. Change your filter oil to No-Toil. My opinion there is nothing better, and use the No-Toil filter grease.

  • gonefishing

Posted July 09, 2010 - 06:14 AM

#14

As a second note your Aluminum and Iron are high - not the the critical point but still high.

Aluminum = piston
Iron = rings

  • grayracer513

Posted July 09, 2010 - 06:58 AM

#15

Aluminum = piston
Iron = rings

In an engine, perhaps. Here it's much more likely to be:
Aluminum=Clutch debris
Iron=transmission gears

Gray :), what filter are you running, whats your filter oiling procedure and what oil do you use?

I use Twin Airs and Maxima FFT. IMO, I have not seen a more tenacious filter oil, ever. It's extremely tacky, and stays "wet" and tacky indefinitely, so a prepped filter can be put in place long before it's actually used. I understand there's a newer No-Toil, but this was a problem with the last version of that product that I tried; it simply lost its tack after 4-5 days.

Wear rubber gloves. I screw a squirt top on the oil bottle (if you don't have one, you can cheat by leaving the foil seal on and poking a hole in it). Turn the element inside out and drizzle it with oil. Run a bead along the seam where the flange meets the dome. Work it in some and turn the element right side out again. Drizzle more oil on it, including the surface of the flange itself.

The oil has to be worked in thoroughly throughout the entire mass of the foam. The way I know it's enough is when I can squeeze the foam and force a small amount of liquid oil out of it. When you're satisfied, hang the element up to drain the excess off for several hours (put something under it). Then install it.

  • davcon

Posted July 09, 2010 - 03:47 PM

#16

I was'nt putting enough oil on. Reply printed. Thanks Gray, . :)

  • jratcliffe3

Posted July 10, 2010 - 11:31 AM

#17

As a second note your Aluminum and Iron are high - not the the critical point but still high.

Aluminum = piston
Iron = rings


They are pretty normal - the averages on the sheet are for oil at 6 hrs. His oil had done 11, and the figures are not double the 6 hour average.

Metal content will rise proportionally with the amount of use the oil has had (the engine is always wearing), so I think the figures are fine considering the oil had been in for so long.

This is, however, the reason why I change my oil every 2-3 hours - metal content in oil will increase the rate of wear (the same as dust/sand), so the more frequently the oil is changed, the less abrasive metal content you keep in your oil.





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